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Digital Archive International History Declassified

July 26, 1965

STENOGRAPHIC TRANSCRIPT OF DISCUSSIONS HELD WITH CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY DELEGATION TO THE 9TH CONGRESS OF ROMANIAN COMMUNIST PARTY

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    The meeting focuses on disagreements between the Chinese and Soviets regarding the Vietnam War and general support to the North Vietnamese. The two sides also discuss general relations among the Warsaw Pact countries.
    "Stenographic Transcript of Discussions Held with Chinese Communist Party Delegation to the 9th Congress of Romanian Communist Party," July 26, 1965, History and Public Policy Program Digital Archive, ANIC, RCPCC, Chancellery, Folder 105/1965, pp. 2-15. Obtained and translated for CWIHP by Mircea Munteanu. https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/110017
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of the discussions held with the delegation of the Chinese Communist Party which participated in the proceedings of the 9th Congress of the Romanian Communist Party

26 July 1965

The following comrades took part in the discussions:

· On the Romanian side : Nicolae Ceausescu, general secretary of the Central Committee (CC) of the Romanian Communist Party (RCP); Chivu Stoica, member of the Executive Committee (EC), member of the Permanent Presidium (PP) of the CC of RCP, president of the State Council of the Romanian People's Republic (RPR); Ion Gheorghe Maurer, member of the EC, member of the PP of the CC of RCP, president of the Council of Ministers of the RPR; Vasile Patilinet, secretary of the CC of RCP; Dumitru Gheorghiu, substitute member of the CC of RCP; the ambassador of RPR in Beijing; Andrei Pacuraru, member of CC of RCP, chief of the Direction of Party Affairs of CC of RCP.

· On the Chinese side : Deng Xiaoping, member of the Permanent Committee (PC) of the Political Bureau of the CC, general secretary of the CC of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP); Kan Shen, substitute member of the Political Bureau, member of the Secretariat of CC of CCP; U Siutsiuan, member of CC of CCP and Liu Fan, ambassador of the Chinese People's Republic (CPR) at Bucharest.

The discussions began at 10.30.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

Did you have a good rest yesterday?

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

Yes, very good.
I want to congratulate you for the success of your Congress; we congra-tulate the new elected organs of your party; we are very glad about all these things.
The main purpose of our visit here is to congratulate you on the occasion of your Congress. Taking this opportunity, we are once more imparting the best good wishes from the part of comrades Mao Zedong, Liu Siao-tzi, Chou En-lai, and Ciu De addressed to comrades Nicolae Ceausescu, Chivu Stoica, Ion Gheorghe Maurer, and to the other comrades in the leadership of your party.
It was apparent from what we have seen in your country that both the industry and the agriculture of your country are developing well. This proves the correctness of your party line. You have overcome the difficulties that you had before and we are very glad about this.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

Comrades, we thank you for this visit, for the greetings addressed to our Congress. We look upon this as a contribution towards the strengthening of the relationships between our parties, between our peoples. The fact is true that we would have wanted you to see more things in our country, but we hope that the comrades will come on another occasion to visit our country, to know the work of our people.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

The plan you have drawn up is a grandiose plan. We are convinced that we will again have the opportunity to come to your country; we are convinced that you, too, will come to our country because we understand the relationships between our two parties very well.
These relationships are built on the basis of a common ideology, are built on the basis of a common experience. The relationships between our two parties and our two countries are not only normal, but they develop very well. Of course, this does not mean that we have identical views about all the international issues; differences of opinions may exist, but we have a lot of things in common and this is the essential thing.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

We agree with this. It is certain that the relationships between our parties are good; they also have a good basis for further development and the issues on which we have common points of view ensure a fruitful collaboration. In this collaboration we will also find solutions to the problems on which we have different opinions.

Comrade Ion Gheorghe Maurer :

And this the more so as we found, a long time ago, a very good way: sincere, open, comradely discussions. We have already done this, we are doing it now, and we will do it from now on; this is a very good basis for understanding.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

We discussed with you in Beijing last year. The effect of an exchange of opinions can be none other than making our friendship closer.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

As regards our present meeting, we would like to listen to our guests, to hear if they have issues to raise. We have spoken a lot; we have kept talking for six days; now we want to listen. And, of course, we will say a few things in connection with the talks we held with some of the delegations attending the congress proceedings.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

We think that the proceedings of your Congress enjoyed a big success. From the reports presented and from the speeches made at the Congress the correctness of your party line was readily apparent to us. We have seen that all the delegates trusted the political line promoted by your party and the plan of future development adopted by your party; we have noticed the cohesion and unity of your party and, frankly speaking, we see such a phenomenon very rarely in the other socialist countries. If we were to make an assessment, this is our assessment and this is a reason we are very much satisfied with. We have seen that, at the Congress, you presented not only your experience, but also the experience regarding the relationships between the socialist countries, and you also presented the experience in the field of international relationships. In many respects, this experience is our experience as well.
You have changed the name of your party and of your country, you have strengthened the leading role of the party in the state, you have made the ties of the party with the masses stronger. We have noted, with attention, the fact that you have intensified the educational work with the youth.
We have a common experience of all these issues; the issues you are thinking about are issues we are thinking of, too. This is a very good thing.
In view of our previous discussions with comrade Maurer, we understand the organizational forms of your party very well; we understand that such forms are very good; if we are not mistaken, these forms presuppose both the attraction of a bigger number of comrades in taking part in the leadership of the state and conditions for a more centralized leadership; all these also offer a wider democracy and a more intense centralization.
It is very good that you have adopted a separate decision for the Vietnam issue. We are of the opinion that your approach, and your solemnly adoption of a decision on this issue, is a very good thing. Of course, there are certain differences of opinion between us in connection with the form of expression, but the fact that you have adopted a separate decision is very good. We have discussed the Vietnam issue with comrades Ceausescu and Maurer over the dinner we had together. Last night we handed over to comrade Patilinet the duplicate of the letter of our Central Committee addressed to the CC of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) as a reply to the letter of the CC of CPSU of April 16 [1965].

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

We have received it.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

This [reply] letter contains some differences of opinion between our party and the CPSU on the Vietnam issue. The Soviets said that they would invite us to a meeting [intended] to help the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. We have informed you about it. The Soviet Union wanted to send to Vietnam 4,000 soldiers specialized in remote-controlled missiles, and it also asked that one or two airports in our country be put at its disposal. On these airports 500 Soviet soldiers were to be stationed. The Soviet Union also wanted to open an air corridor between the USSR and Vietnam over our country. The Soviet forgot that we had a certain experience in this respect. On the ground that we refused these requests, we are accused of not wanting the Soviet Union to help Vietnam.

Comrade Kan Sen :

The Soviets do not respect the sovereignty of our country; in order to discuss this issue with us, they sent only their embassy's counselor; they look upon our country as a province of the Soviet Union.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

In this letter, a duplicate of which we handed over to you, we replied to the Soviet proposal regarding the meeting of the representatives of the CPSU, CCP, and the Workers' Party of Vietnam. We told them: if the issue is help for Vietnam, then we have already contacted the Vietnamese comrades and rendered help to them; if you wish to help Vietnam, contact the Vietnamese comrades. The greater the help, the better. In their letter of April 17 [1965], CPSU accused us of placing ourselves in a special position. We have known this for several years. As if we had encouraged the USA aggression against Vietnam!
Subsequently, the Soviets proposed – several times – the undertaking of common actions. From the speech of [Walter] Ulbricht it was apparent that he would have wanted to take advantage of the proceedings of your Congress for this purpose, but we had discussed this issue at our previous meeting. The delegate of Venezuela also raised this issue.
In our letter we replied as regards this issue of common actions as well. We understand what the Soviets are pursuing in connection with the help to be rendered to Vietnam. In the spring of last year, the Soviet government officially raised before the government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam the issue of both South Vietnam and North Vietnam becoming neutral countries. They officially informed us about this issue, too. Immediately after the Vietnamese comrades had been informed about this issue, they replied. In the past we declared for the creation, in the southern part of Vietnam, of a government which would promote a policy of neutrality; the Vietnamese comrades also agreed with the neutralization of South Vietnam. The Soviet Union, however, declared for the neutralization of North Vietnam, too. This means the neutralization of a socialist country – the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. Even of late, the USA still speak s about this. Even during the visit which [Averell] Harriman paid to the Soviet Union, they still talked about the neutralization. A government of the same type as the government of Laos should be formed not in South Vietnam, but in North Vietnam. From this we can very clearly see the kind of bargaining being perpetrated between the Soviet Union and the United States of America when negotiations without conditions are contemplated. Holding negotiations “without conditions” is the result of an agreement concluded with the United States of America. On February 16, 1965, the Soviet Union officially proposed to our government the holding of negotiations without conditions. The Soviets first proposed this to the Vietnamese comrades, and after a day or two informed us, too. They said they would like to know first of all the opinion of the Vietnamese and Chinese comrades and afterwards to undertake actions in this direction. The Vietnamese gave their answer the same day they were informed; we have not answered this proposal yet.
The Soviets, through the agency of their ambassador in Paris, raised this issue with de Gaulle. So that is the way bargaining is concluded.
We have recently received precise information from which it results that the USA is still wondering whether they should bomb Hanoi and Haiphong ,because this would mean bombing the guided-missile bases of the Soviet Union. However, through diplomatic contacts between the Soviet Union and the United States of America, the latter were officially informed about the locations of the Soviet guided-missile bases. That is what these common actions mean! To act jointly with them?! The Soviets wanted us to act jointly with them under the aegis of solving the Vietnamese issue on the basis of the collaboration between the United States of America and the Soviet Union. This is their real purpose.

For this reason, if we participated in a meeting with them and made a fine decision, this would mean that we would help them deceive people.
After we answered their proposal regarding the convocation of a meeting of the party representatives of the three countries, they spoke even louder and oftener, including at international conferences, in favor of common actions being undertaken.
Their purpose is to isolate China. We are thinking a lot about this issue and realize what isolation means. We will be able to see what this isolation means only in the final analysis. Isolation is not necessarily a bad thing. In our view, you have such an experience, too. Within the framework of COMECON, are you isolated or not?

Comrade Ion Gheorghe Maurer :

But we are fighting.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

As a result of your isolation you have more tomatoes and cucumbers than others, to say nothing of other things.
Concerning the Vietnam problem, we told you about our point of view; to cut a long story short, we have made all the preparations, including the military ones. We also talked about this with the Vietnamese comrades. We can give them everything they need. If they think this help is not necessary, we do not want to impose it; I am mainly referring to the military help. We all agree with the Vietnamese comrades' opinion that they must rely on their own forces to resist the aggression of the United States of America, and that China be looked upon as being “behind the front line”. We deployed our troops to the frontier with the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, but if the Vietnamese comrades feel that these troops of ours are not necessary, we will not send troops there. Currently, there are in Vietnam engineer troops, transport detachments, and anti-aircraft artillery troops sent by the Chinese People's Republic. Their numbers are not small. We send troops in accordance with their needs; we pay heed to their opinion even with respect to the way these troops are to be sent [to Vietnam].

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

As to the Congress, I would like to thank comrade Deng Xiaoping for his beautiful words. Apart from the plan and economic development issues, we thought it was good to clarify a number of issues in connection with which there are discussions or attempts to allow them sink into oblivion. That is why we raised the broader issue of the necessity of industrialization, the issue of the party and state roles, and the issue of the national role because lately there have been attempts at saying that the nation is something obsolete, that the emphasis must be laid on nations getting closer to one another and [eventually] merging. We think this to be wrong and dangerous for our general cause of socialism and communism. This is the reason why, within the framework of the Congress, we referred to a larger extent to these issues.
As regards the Vietnam issue, it is true that we discussed it last time [we met]. The day before yesterday we also discussed with the Vietnamese comrades and we agreed on all of the issues; we rendered them some help, too, including arms. We met almost all of their requests.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

Very good.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

We agree with the Chinese comrades' viewpoint that it is up to the Viet-namese comrades to make the decisions.
During the Congress proceedings, we met some delegations, [among them] the delegation of the German Democratic Republic (GDR) headed by comrade [Walter] Ulbricht. Naturally, we agreed on all the issues in the long run. The German comrades in particular raised the issue of our relationships with the Federal Republic Germany (FRG). They expressed their opinion [in this matter], and they also talked with us about it yesterday before leaving for home, saying that it is good to establish diplomatic relationships with the FRG. There is a tendency, however, to establish such relationships somehow through the agency of the GDR. We showed the German comrades that this issue was each state's business, and we alone will know what must be done and how. They agreed with us eventually.
We had a meeting with comrade [Todor] Jivkov; we discussed more about our future visit to Bulgaria. We do not have special problems with the Bulgarian comrades; what we have are normal problems.
We also had a meeting with the Yugoslav delegation, with [Eduard] Kardelj. In our program we also have [Josif Broz] Tito's visit to our country, in autumn. The building of the hydroelectric power station on the Danube is under way. Kardelj said that he was very enthusiastic about the proceedings of our Congress and that they had a lot to learn [from it]. As I told comrade Deng Xiaoping at the reception two nights before, the Yugoslavs said they wished to improve the relationships with the Chinese comrades. I told them to talk to the Chinese comrades in order to find together the ways of improving their relation-ships.
Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

We are not against improving the state relationships. In our talks with our two parties, which were held in Beijing, we told you that we wished from the bottom of our hearts the improvement of your state relationships with Yugo-slavia. As regards the way Yugoslavia must be looked upon, there are differ-ences of opinions between our two countries, but this aspect is not important. It will be clarified in time.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

They are concerned with making things right in their country. They also have a lot of difficulties from the economic point of view.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

Why do they have such difficulties; after all, they received a lot of dollars and roubles?!

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

You can do nothing just with handouts. Actually, you must first rely on your own forces. This is the soundest kind of development.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

We paid attention to the actions undertaken by Yugoslavia at an inter-national level. Concerning the Vietnam issue, during your Congress Kardelj also spoke about supporting Vietnam, but we pay more attention to a series of actions and declarations. For instance, when the USA planes were bombing the VDR territory and fresh [USA] troops were sent to South Vietnam, the Yugoslav press published a commentary, in which it was asserted that the USA had a right to self-defense.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

But there also was an official declaration, whereby the Yugoslavs condemned the American intervention and aerial bombardments. However, they can be helped to adopt a more just line. We hope this will happen and wish that each one of us meets them halfway and helps them.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

We hope that the work performed by you will yield good results. In Beijing, too, when we held talks, we said the talks we held with the other European countries did not have results, but if you work with them results will be obtained. We hope that the most important thing is your experience, and this experience will have a greater influence.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

Afterwards we had a short meeting, more of a protocol nature, with parties from Latin America. It was apparent that, concerning lots of issues, the comrades agreed with our party's position. It was also apparent that on many issues they had information that was contrary to reality, and taking part in our Congress enabled them to better realize what our party's activity and position actually were.
We also had meetings, of a protocol nature, too, with the representatives of parties of Arab countries, with whom we had an exchange of opinions.
We had exchanges of opinions with the Soviet comrades as well. The last meeting took place yesterday. Comrade [Leonid] Breznev expressed a wish to improve relationships between our two countries and do away with all of Khrushchev's subjective actions. He told us that Khrushchev had been ousted from his position because they did not agree with these actions of his and we agreed to have, probably in September, a meeting to discuss a series of issues regarding the relationships between our parties and countries.
An issue raised by the Soviet comrades was the issue of the Warsaw Treaty Organisation. In their view, towards the end of the year, a meeting of the Consultative Committee should take place as a result of the need to make some improvements as regards the organization of the military high command with a view to ensuring a broader participation of the representatives of the other socialist countries in this high command. We told the Soviet comrades that we will see. Since we have a common high command, it is to be assumed that the leadership of the current high command also be common. But the leadership of the current high command is Soviet. We will see what proposals will be made. We had told them on other occasions that within the framework of all this orga-nization one must ensure that each army be independent, that each socialist country have an army of its own.

Comrade Ion Gheorghe Maurer :

The relationships should be of collaboration, of cooperation, not of subor-dination.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

We will analyze the proposals which will be made on that subject.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

This means the Soviet want to strengthen their control over the others.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

It is hard to say. The criticisms made so far were only about the fact that this command is Soviet. Naturally, they want to ensure a broader representative basis of the command, but we do not want only that and, mainly, not a formal representation, but really the organization of the command on a new basis, not as a unified command, but as an organ of collaboration between independent countries.

Comrade Ion Gheorghe Maurer :

This means that we want to act in such a way that no supranational control over these countries exist. But let us see how things will pan out.

Comrade Kan Sen :

On this score I would like to say that a book bearing the title “Military Strategy”, edited by [Marshal] Sokolovsky, was published in the Soviet Union. In the second edition of this book some modifications have been made, but the book is used as basic material in the Soviet military academies. In it it is stated that if there is a war against the imperialists, then all the socialist countries will have to act in common and all the armies of the socialist countries will have to be under the command of the Soviet Union. This is their strategic conception.

Comrade Ion Gheorghe Maurer :

If each one of us devises such a conception, things will go really well!

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

The fact is that this [conception] exists not only in handbooks; actually, in the organization of the Warsaw Treaty Organization and that of the united command, the armies of the other socialist countries of Europe are subordinated. We want to do away with this state of affairs.

Comrade Ion Gheorghe Maurer :

This is very important because a big issue arises. COMECON was such a big issue and maybe it will be again; now comes the Warsaw Treaty Organization, an issue which emerges. Maybe it will not be easy, but at any rate we must see.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

Of course, we understand that in case of a war against imperialism we will have to act in common, but these actions – which require the mobilization of the whole people – must be performed on the basis of a close cooperation, with the independence of each country being observed, and the participation of each army as an independent army, as a national force. This will ensure that the effort of each country will really be an effort from all viewpoints.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

We wholly agree with your opinion. We acted like that during the war in Korea. We can tell you that, together with the Korean comrades, we drew up a battle plan, but on the basis of the principles put forward by comrade Ceausescu just now. We cannot admit the fact that Vietnam and Korea be subordinated to our country because China is a bigger country. But your experience is richer than ours because you came across such problems within the framework of COMECON and of the Warsaw Treaty Organization. We know that you have fought and think that there are many people who agree with you.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

We imparted our opinion to comrade Ulbricht because he also raised this issue. He said: it goes without saying that we must make improvements since we do not want things to happen as in 1962, during the crisis in the Carribean Sea. If we are a pact intended for defense and fight in common, the steps that are to be taken must be the result of everybody's will.

It is with this issue in mind that we want to discuss when we meet the Soviet comrades in Moscow in autumn.
We agreed to debate these issues and proposed to the Soviet comrades to call to the session of the Consultative Committee the Albanian comrades as well. To call them not only to the session, but also to its preparation. The Soviet comrades agreed with this proposal. It goes without saying that we will have to see to it that the Albanian comrades participate. Albania is a member of the Warsaw Treaty Organization and it would be good for it to take part [in the session]. If there are more of us, we will be able to obtain better results.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

Regarding the Albanian issue we discussed with [Aleksey Nikolayevich] Kosygin when he passed through our country on the occasion of his visit to Vietnam. Comrade Mao Zedong told Kosygin that the Soviets speak about the unity of the socialist camp, but why do not they want to solve the Albanian problem likewise? This problem is not difficult to solve. If they admit that they made a mistake as regards Albania, it is enough for the problem to be solved. If they do not say that they made a mistake, the Albanian comrades will not come to the session even if they are invited. At the 22nd Congress of the CPSU a strong action against Albania was launched. If the Soviet Union does not solemnly admit that it erred, how can the Albanian comrades accept the invitation?! We are convinced that you will justly approach this issue within the framework of COMECON and within the framework of the Warsaw Treaty Organization, and then fairness will be on your side.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

These are about all the problems that did not arise at the Congress. We also had a meeting with the Indonesian comrades, with Aidit. Of course, we do not have any special problems with the Indonesian comrades; generally speak-ing, we agree on all the problems.
We also had a meeting, more protocol-like, for a quarter of an hour, with the Korean comrades. Neither with them have we special problems; we have common views on the main problems.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

I feel it my duty to thank comrade Ceausescu and the other comrades who informed us about these issues.
Maybe you are aware of the situation in our country. The situation in both the industry and the agriculture is good. The movement for the education in the socialist way of the whole people is proceeding and we have obtained good results in this regard. Initially, we made provisions for finishing this movement in a period of five years, but we can finish it, by and large, next year or in 1967, that is to say in three or four years' time. This movement unfolds according to a plan, in stages. In the first stage we obtained very good results, especially as regards the solution of a number of problems related to cadres and the improvement of the relationships between the state and the people. By using the existing pro- duction capacities, we increased the production. For example, in the industrial enterprises, after this movement had unfolded, it was found that the work quality had improved. Although the number of workers was reduced by a third, the production increased.
Now we are working on a five-year plan and a ten-year long-term plan. After three years of big difficulties and after three years of recovery and development, we have created good conditions for drawing up a long-term plan. We now tell you that, in keeping with our line of thinking, we are not going to publish our long-term plan. We will let the imperialists guess what we want to do.
We deem this visit an official one, a courtesy one, paid to the Central Committee of the party, and – concurrently – a goodbye visit.
The relationships between our parties and countries are very good; there are no special problems; everything is developing normally; we have to further develop our friendship.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

Comrade Zhou En-lai was to pay us a visit. It could not take place this spring due to the known circumstances. We now wish to renew our invitation for this visit.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

I will not fail to let him have it. It is good that several exchange visits take place. About our current problems we can say that we have an exchange of opinions very often. We have received lots of very important information from your leadership. In certain respects, you have broader and closer contacts than we have.

Comrade Nicolae Ceausescu :

I would ask comrade Deng Xiaoping to send warm greetings to comrades Mao Zedong, Liu Shao-tsi, Chou En-lai, Chou De, and to the other comrades from us, the leadership of our party. We wish them all good health and much capacity for work.

Comrade Deng Xiaoping :

We thank you.

The discussions ended at 12.00 hours.