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Digital Archive International History Declassified

May 17, 1963

MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION FROM CHAIRMAN MAO'S RECEPTION OF THE DELEGATION OF THE BRAZILIAN COMMUNIST PARTY (THE OLD PARTY)

This document was made possible with support from the Henry Luce Foundation

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    Chairman Mao discusses Manuel Jover Telles's visit to China, the Brazilian economy, and factions within the Brazilian government.
    "Memorandum of Conversation from Chairman Mao's Reception of the Delegation of the Brazilian Communist Party (The Old Party)," May 17, 1963, History and Public Policy Program Digital Archive, PRC FMA 111-00608-04. Translated by Sergey Radchenko. https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/117981
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Memorandum of Conversation from Chairman Mao's Reception of the Delegation of the Brazilian Communist Party (The Old Party)

Time: April 17, 1963, 8:30 pm-10:30 pm and April 18, 4 pm-7 pm

Place: Hangzhou

Chairman Mao: Welcome to you.

[Manuel Jover] Telles: We are very happy to see you today, we have brought greetings to you from comrade [Luíz Carlos] Prestes and the [PCB] Central Committee.

Chairman: Thank you. Thank comrade Prestes on my behalf. How is his health? He came to China in 1959, and spoke with me once. He is relatively old, about the same as I.  [Mao was 70 years old—ed.]  

Telles: 65 years old.

Chairman: Then, he is a bit younger than I. You came from Brazil, you passed through many places and have not had a rest. Do you feel tired?

Telles: We went via Africa, Paris, and Moscow.

Chairman: That's more than half the globe.

Telles: We left Rio de Janeiro on March 27, and came to China on March 31. We only arrive here from Beijing this morning.

Chairman: There are positive sides to visiting South China. You can go to see Shanghai. Shanghai is only three hours away from here.

Telles: Comrade Mao Zedong surely knows the goal of our visit to China. We have been entrusted by the Central Committee to come and report on our situation and to understand the views of the Chinese comrades concerning the split in the international communist movement. In Beijing we reported on our situations to comrade Wu Xiuquan and comrade Li Qixin, and comrade Peng Zhen spoke to us about the problems of the split of the international communist movement.

Chairman: I know about this in general terms. I am not too sure what questions comrade Peng Zhen spoke to you about [but] I already know about your report.

Comrade Wu Xiuquan (hereafter, Wu, to Chairman Mao): Comrades Peng Zhen and Kang Sheng spoke to them about the content and the process of development of the Sino-Soviet split, problems of the Sino-Indian border, the problem of Yugoslavia, the problem of the Caribbean Sea [likely a ref. to the Cuban Missile Crisis – trans.], revolutionary strategy and tactics, and so on.  

Chairman: I've already looked at the Brazilian situation that you have spoken about to comrades Wu Xiuquan and Li Qixin. This helps me understand the Brazilian situation but there are some other questions I am not too clear about.

Telles: We are fully able to provide even more information, possibly the last time we were unable to speak clearly, but we listen to your disposition [zhipei], if you have any views on our report, or if you have views on other problems of our party, we are very wiling to listen, we won't see it as interference in internal affairs. Although our party's history is fairly old it [the party] is still fairly backward [luohou].

Chairman: For example, foreign debt reaching 3.1 billion US dollars, what kind of foreign debt is this? Does this include foreign investments?

Telles: It does not count investment by foreign companies, this refers purely to payment for goods.

Chairman: of a financial nature?

Telles: Yes. In recent years, Brazil lives by borrowing, repays debts by borrowing, and the debt is growing ever larger. In reality, actual cash never reaches Brazil.

Chairman: In terms of foreign investment in heavy and light industry, your report only has percentages but does not have absolute numbers. The report only has the sum for years 1955 to 1961, more than 500 million [sic; 5 billion?—trans.] US dollars, but it I don't know the numbers for before 1955.

Telles: In Beijing comrades already pointed out this issue. We can't provide absolute numbers. One can say that just US direct investment certainly exceeds 2 billion US dollars.  

Chairman: Moreover, it's probably not limited to just US investment?

Telles: There are also other countries. In Brazil, current foreign investments, not counting the US, come from West Germany, France, and Britain. Japan is also recovering its economic power in Brazil. The increase in West German investments in very quick, mainly in the car industry and the machine tool industry. Japan's is mainly in the shipbuilding industry. Italy also has some investments.

Chairman: And doesn't Canada also have some?

Telles: Canada has big enterprises, for instance [a] light and electricity company, but most of its shares are in the US hands, real Canadian capital, [Canadian] penetration are not that great. Generally speaking, the percentage of US investments is on the decline but it is growing in absolute numbers. Our report pointed out that annual automobile production has reached 130,000, the main part is in foreign hands, mainly in the hands of the US capital. Around the automobile market there sprang up some auxiliary industries, such as the automotive parts industry. The majority of these automotive parts industries are national capitalists, they have relations with foreign capital. This year after the change of the presidential system, Brazil is going to pay off 800 million US dollars of US debt. Last month, the Finance Minister Santiago Dantas went to the US. It is planned to renew a US loan in order to repay debt. It was originally planned to borrow 1.5 billion US dollars, to use it for paying off debts for three years but the US has only given the amount necessary for paying off this year's debt, the rest remains for later, to hold Brazil by the pigtail. This has something to do with [João] Goulart's 3 Year Plan, it also has something to do with the Alliance for Progress. It does not touch on the causes of economic difficulties. Their reliance on the Three Year Plan of the Alliance for Progress [sic] is not at all in accordance with the interests of the Brazilian people.

Chairman: Can you say that the Brazilian national capitalist class has already captured political power?

Telles: The composition of the present government is still very complex. I already mentioned in the report that the specifics of the current Brazilian situation is that the Brazilian nation has already divided into two groups: one, the patriotic group, and the other the sell-out group. The patriotic group of the national capitalist class belongs to our common anti-imperialist front.  The sell-out group includes the sell-out elements of the national capitalist class and the large landowners. Therefore, the specifics of the political situation in Brazil are that there is often conflict between these two groups. Sometimes it relaxes, and sometimes it sharpens. There was a sharpening in 1954, there was the suicide of [Getúlio] Vargas, I already mentioned that in the report. The latest instance is the struggle of the general strike of July 5 of last year.  

So, with these struggles, what means does one use to resolve them? The entire process is in the hands of the capitalist class. The result of the struggle is that the capitalist class reaches a compromise. The current government is a product of a compromise. After a compromise, the government has become increasingly stable in its position. This government has large landowners, big capitalists and representatives of the national bourgeoisie. In general, it's a product of a compromise. Recently we saw a dispatch of the Xinhua Agency, it looks as if the whole process has sharpened again. The head of the war ministry Kuluai'erqitu [Amaury Kruel] fired the commander of the First Army A'erweisi [Osvino Ferreira Alves]. This head of the war ministry has ties to the large landowners, and the commander of the first army, by contrast, has connections with the leftist forces, he represents the national bourgeoisie. One can say that the position of the capitalist class in power has been consolidated, but it is unable to control it entirely. They would [like?] to extend their control, so they want support of the workers, and they are making economic concessions to the workers. Of course, at the same time these concessions facilitate the struggle of the working class.

Chairman: Can one say that Vargas represented the national bourgeoisie?

Telles: No. Vargas was a big landowner from South Rio Grande. He came to power following the movement of 1930. In 1929 there was a crisis on the Rio stock market, the world economic crisis impacted Brazil, the national bourgeoisie looked for a way out, the US was also wantonly acting in Brazil, [it] wanted to get rid of the British influence in Brazil. At the time, the bourgeois class was developing, they wanted to take advantage [of the situation] to occupy a position of political power. The petit-bourgeoisie were disappointed with the uprising of 1924, and also thought that this was an opportunity. The party at the time still had many weaknesses both in terms of ideas and the organization. Under such circumstances, the U.S. put out money to support the Vargas group and attained the victory of the movement. Vargas became president but the Americans were not able to completely displace Britain's position, because Britain continued to oppose them.  

In 1932 the coffee plantation owners from Santa Catarina, who had ties to the U.K., started an insurrection, and the government was forced to come to terms with them. Vargas obtained money from the U.S. and gave subsidies to these coffee plantation owners. Germany took advantage of the opportunity and also got into Brazil, establishing a Corporate Fascist Party [Brazilian Integralist Action (Ação Integralista Brasileira, AIB) party?], this party indeed became a mass movement.

In 1937 Vargas, on the pretext of opposing communism, established the New State [Estado Novo], and, all the way through 1945, fully exercised personal dictatorship. In 1938 Vargas made a talk on a cruiser, announcing that Brazil fully supported Hitler. In 1938 there was a political coup that prompted cheers from Berlin. Afterward, due to the development of the Second World War, the US declaring war against Germany, there was an upsurge in the people's anti-fascist struggle. It was only then that Vargas declared war on Germany.

After the war, the British were unable to protect their interest in Brazil because they could not even take care of themselves, and the enterprises belonging to the nationals of the Axis powers came under the control of the Brazilian government. The US set up an air base and a naval base in Brazil's northeastern part, forced Brazil to sign the Washington agreement, and obtained a position of absolute preponderance in Brazil. During this period Vargas also made concessions to the workers' movement.

Before 1930 labor unions were unrecognized by the government. After continuous struggle, now the government could not help but recognize them. But Vargas plagiarized Italy's labor charter in setting up Brazil's labor law. In it, he decreed the extend of the power of the labor unions and regulations concerning social insurance, and dressed himself up as the protector of the labor movement. After the coup of October 28, 1945 Vargas was expelled from power.

Among the capitalist class, Vargas is quite smart. He also understands how to use cadres. At that time the world war ended, and the people wanted democracy and amnesty of political prisoners. Vargas saw that the situation was not right, He preferred cutting off a finger to preserve an arm and made concessions to the democratic movement. But in 1945 he was still expelled from power.

In the elections of 1950 he was once again elected President. He opted for a strong policy against imperialism, [established a] state oil monopoly, set up the minimum worker wage, and attempted to establish contacts with other European countries. At the time the whole country was on the eve of an election. Vargas wanted to gain victory for his group. He did not dare to resort to tough measures against the people's movement. Therefore, the most reactionary forces, with US support, carried out a coup. At the time Vargas basically had every condition to resist. At the time every democratic force, including our party, initiated contact with him, asking him to arm the people.  

But at the time the repressive apparatus was split. If Vargas opposed the coup, there would have been a civil war. Vargas understood that, he preferred to kill himself. He was unwilling to let the people rise up to chop off his arm. Can't say that Vargas was a representative of the national bourgeoisie.

Chairman: After Vargas's death, what factions does the government have?

Telles: He was succeeded by Vice President Café Filho. This person participated in the coup. He had no ability to obstruct the mass movement. Therefore, there was another election. [Juscelino] Kubitschek was elected. The people who supported him in gaining power were the same as those who supported Vargas.

Imperialism wanted to impede him from taking power, they wanted to organize a coup. But on November 11, 1955 the democratic forces within the army launched a counter-coup, organized [sic; probably “prevented”—trans.] their coup. Kubitschek  gained power, he is a typical representative of the bourgeoisie. However, I would not [word missing, probably “say”—trans.] that he was a representative of the national bourgeoisie. His thinking was progressive. He wanted to promote Brazil's capitalist development but he wanted to rely on American imperialism and he would not dismantle the structure of large land ownership at the cost of sacrificing the wide masses.

From 1955 to 1956 he established Brazil's auto industry. At the time he could basically rely on the national capital to manage [it]. There already were national capitalist enterprises, which began to produce cars. The U.S. discovered that they could not impede the development of national capitalism, so it became involved in the development of the auto industry. Kubitschek also turned to Japan for capital and established a ship-building factory. He also turned to West Germany for capital, and set up an auto factory and heavy industry. Kubitschek's time was the time of economic development but it was carried out relying on an unprecedented influx of U.S. and other foreign capital.

At the same time, Kubitschek utilized contradictions between all the foreign countries. After the elections, [Jânio] Quadros gained power. Quadros is a representative of the big capitalists of São Paulo.

The capital possessed by São Paulo's big capitalist class accounts for 50 to 60 percent of Brazil's capitalist class. Quadros is not the same as Kubitschek. Kubitschek relied on inflation to drive economic construction but Quadros resorted to financial austerity. Quadros's internal policy was to obey the IMF while his external policy was to promote the principle of self-determination for all countries.  

During his rule, [Brazil] began restoring diplomatic relations with all the socialist countries, stepped up the oppression of the people, yet also sought the markets of socialist countries. There were contradictions with the U.S. Therefore, Quadros was forced to resign, there was the August [1961] incident. At the time Vice President Goulart was in China. Fascist generals declared that they would not allow Goulart to return home. They wanted to establish fascist rule. There was a universal internal strike against the establishment of a fascist dictatorship. Led by [Leonel] Brizola of Rio Grande do Sul, it resolutely opposed fascist tyranny.

Brizola organized a legal broadcast network. At the time the third army, stationed in Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Paraná, stalled and did not listen to the orders of the fascist generals in Rio de Janeiro, marching north to the border area between São Paulo and Paraná, where it established fortifications. The fascist generals ordered troops into the South but entire regiments and battalions would not listen to orders, there was a split. At the time, Rio Grande do Sul already established more than a hundred worker volunteer battalions [check unit], preparing for war.

Chairman: Did these worker volunteer troops have weapons?

Telles: They did not yet have weapons, they paraded in the street, practicing military drills. The state of Goias had two thousand peasants with home-made weapons, they advanced on Brasília. At the time our party's direction was to advocate the civil war. Our slogan was: protect constitutional rule, dismantle the big land ownership system, and throw off U.S. control. When Goulart returned home, he returned to Brazil via Rio Grande do Sul. As the leadership was in the hands of the national bourgeoisie, they knew that if a civil war starts, it could lead to the Communists organizing an enormous armed force. Then they adopted a compromise policy, organized a parliamentary government, paralyzing the entire movement. The basic problem was not resolved. Contradictions sharpened again.

The conflict between two big factions sharpened again in 1962. The main movement this time was the political general strike. This was shortly before the elections. Some ministers resigned and participated in the elections. Goulart had no choice but to reorganize the cabinet. The U.S. attempted to organize a cabinet that would be completely subservient to them. The national bourgeoisie, on the other hand, tried to strengthen their position in the government. The two sides acted wantonly, and the struggle of contradictions sharpened. Under these circumstances, workers, under the party leadership, carried out a general strike, proposed to organized a national democratic government, raised the banner of land reform, but did not have the power to impede the new compromise.

The capitalist class and the big landowners were afraid of the insurrection of the masses and renewed their compromise, yet the problem was unresolved. On August 15 of the same year there was a new general strike, 2 million people participated, in the end the capitalist class compromised again, and the question was once again unresolved. In last year's October elections, the most reactionary forces suffered some kind of defeat. The tendency is the isolation of the reactionary forces and the progress of the revolutionary forces. The consciousness of the masses has greatly increased.

I already mentioned that during this election, the position of the national bourgeoisie in the government was strengthened, undisguised U.S. agents were not elected into the parliament. All the candidates of the number one U.S. agent in Brazil [Carlos] Lacerda in the state of Guanabara failed to be elected. The most reactionary candidates from the northeastern state of Pernambuco were also not elected. Miguel Arraes was elected governor of the state. He had been attacked as a communist candidate. The state of Pernambuco is the center of the Northeast, it has influence on other states. The industrialization of this state is the highest in the northeast, and the population is the greatest.

Although we have no illusions with regard to newly elected Arraes, but this definitely is beneficial for our work in the northeast. In the Congress we also organized a nationalist parliamentary front, in which all the party deputies participate. The sides that I just mentioned are all divided into two big groups.

Chairman: Which group does Goulart belong to?

Telles: Goulart says that he belongs to the nationalist parliamentary front but in reality he has contradictions with this front.

Chairman: Doesn't he belong to the labor party?

Telles: He is the leader of the labor party [Partido Trabalhista Brasileiro, PTB; Brazilian Labor Party] but he is not implementing the party program. The labor party program also proposes a thorough land reform and expropriation of imperialist enterprises.

We are currently facing a situation of a struggle between two big groups. The new phenomenon is this: the worker's movement has progressed. The peasant movement has also developed. The united front has also developed. So what's the result? Although we worked very hard, the nationalist capitalist class still holds the power of leadership. It is like a mischievous boy kicking a ball. First he gets the ball out and lets everyone play. Then, just as the ball is being kicked around in a lively fashion, and is about to be kicked into the goal, suddenly he takes the ball away, preventing everyone from finishing the game.

The basic revolutionary force is not sufficiently strong. It can't come in to take the ball. Basically, two factions are contending, possibly leading in the prospect to an extremely big struggle. The party has concluded that it was not sufficiently prepared in the past, that it overestimated the national bourgeoisie, saw the peaceful road as the absolute. Under the circumstances of several instances of sharpening struggle between the two big groups, the party was in no position to exercise control, and made mistakes.

Be it as it may, Brazil's revolutionary force is still developing. The peasant movement is developing. In the last few years, we accumulated forces, promoting the development of the situation. As a result, the two factions' struggle intensified. The force with the leadership power compromised and could not resolve the problem. A new conflict emerged. As for the national capitalist class, the conclusion of the last few years: every time the people rise, they reach a compromise with imperialism. But after compromise, there is still struggle. Where is the weak point? The peasant movement is very weak. The reason is that we underestimated the significance of the peasant movement.

Chairman: In the end, to what group do the national bourgeoisie belong? I am still not clear. If you say they belong to the sell-out group, they still have conflict [with them], if you say that they belong to the people's faction, they still reach compromise with the sell-out group.

Telles: I think the national bourgeoisie still are a part of the national democratic united front. The national bourgeoisie is divided into two factions. One faction capitulates and sells out, the other cooperates with the people.

Chairman: Does this latter part already participate in the government?

Telles: Some do.

Chairman: Is Brizola a typical national capitalist?

Telles: Brizola has always been close to Goulart. But they also have contradictions. Brizola has criticized Goulart's government. Brizola basically represents Rio Grande do Sul's capitalist class but local capitalists are different from capitalists of another place.

The initial rise of the capitalist class of São Paulo was through the export of coffee, cocoa, sugar, and so on. From landowners they became capitalists, so this capitalist class has ties to the land. They are simultaneously large landowners. But in Rio Grande do Sul land was parceled out early into small holdings. The capitalist class developed from the handicraft industry, it has nothing to do with the land.

Chairman: Can one say that Brizola has also ascended the political stage?

Telles: He has prestige at the national level. He was a governor in the past.

Chairman: And now?

Telles: He is no longer a governor. By the Brazilian law, those who have not resigned from governor's posts cannot compete in the gubernatorial elections.  Afterwards, he was elected as a deputy from the State of Guanabara. He received 300,000 votes. In the crisis of August 1961 he gained many people's support.

Chairman: Does he have any relations with you?

Telles: He does. We used to struggle together with him. But we have no illusions. He is Goulart's left arm. He does television broadcasts, which is advantageous for us [check: not clear whether he is in charge of broadcasting or whether he just makes frequent appearances]. Because Brazil's television industry is very developed. Just in Rio de Janeiro there are 600,000 TV sets. In his television speeches his slogans are anti-imperialist and anti-feudal.

Chairman: It's good that you have told me these things today. For now I still cannot voice my opinions because I have not yet seen the documents of your congress of representatives. But I believe that you can find answers in practice. Is the policy right or wrong? Practice will show. China came up a long road. When it started, all it knew was that it wanted revolution. But how to carry out a revolution? Which way to go? This was not clear. We committed mistakes of rightist deviation. We only united with the capitalist class, and did not struggle against them.

One can also say that we committed mistakes of revisionism. We also committed dogmatist mistakes. In 1927 China had a big revolution [sic], at the time there was also a strong worker's movement. Also several tens of millions of peasants were organizing and rising under out leadership. At the time we were not prepared for the treachery of the national bourgeoisie, that is to say, we were not prepared for the treachery of Jiang Jieshi. Therefore, the revolution lost.  

We were forced to take up arms, and fought a 10-year civil war. During the civil war we committed mistakes of leftist deviation three times. Only with the end of the civil war was it possible to correct the mistakes. It was only during the anti-Japanese war that we began to follow a correct party policy. Because after overcoming rightist and leftist mistakes one could sum up the experience, and make the entire party stand united. After Japan's capitulation, Jiang Jieshi attacked us again. We were prepared for it. Not only were we prepared organizationally, but we were prepared militarily. So we beat back Jiang Jieshi's attack. It would be best if you could study China's tortuous road.

Wu: They already prepared to send over ten people. We are ready to systematically introduce China's revolutionary experience to them when they come.

Chairman: If China's experience may be of reference – not just the facade but also the experience of defeats – we can provide it for your reference. The important one is the experience of defeats. Thank you very much for coming to China. You have introduced your conditions to us and also understood our conditions. Thank you, and please pass my greetings to comrade Prestes.

Telles: We will definitely take these greetings with us. I would like to once again express gratitude for the reception we have had while in China. Many of the questions that used to be unclear have now become clear. We are ready to take all of these back with us. Please forgive me for taking so much of your time.

Chairman: Is this your first time in China?

Telles: Yes. But because we have work, we have to go back soon.

Chairman: Later you will have another chance.

(After taking a photo with the foreign guests Chairman Mao and others bid farewell.)

CHINESE (TRANSCRIPTION) HTML

63.04.17毛泽东主席接见巴西的共产党(老党)代表团谈话记录巴西111-00608-04

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毛主席接见巴西的共产党(老党)代表团的谈话记录

时间:一九六三年四月十七日下午八时三十分到十时三十分和四月十八日下午四时到七时

地点:杭州

毛主席:欢迎你们。

特莱斯(以下简称特):今天很高兴见到您,我们带来了普列斯特斯同志和我们党中央向您的问候。

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主席:谢谢你们,代我谢谢普列斯特斯同志,他身体好吗?一九五九年他来过中国,同我会谈过一次,他年纪比较大,同我差不多。

特:六十五岁。

主席:那比我小一点。你们从巴西来,去过很多地方,一直没有休息,很累了吧?

特:我们是经过非洲,巴黎,莫斯科来的。

主席:那走了半个地球还多。

特:我们三月二十七日离开里约热内卢,三月三十一日到达中国。今天上午才从北京动身到这里来。

主席:到中国南方来有好处,可以到上海看看,这里去上海只有三个小时。

特:毛泽东同志一定知道我们来中国的目的。我们主要是受党中央的委托来汇报我们的情况和来了解中国同志对国际共产主义运动分歧问题的看法的。在北京,我们向伍修权同志,李启新同志报告过我们的情况,彭真同志也同我们谈过国际共产主义运动的分歧问题。

主席:我已经大体上知道。彭真同志同你们谈什么问题,我不太清楚,你们的报告我已经知道。

伍修权同志:(以下简称伍,对毛主席):彭真,康生同志向他们谈过中苏分歧的内容和发展过程,中印边境问题,南斯拉夫问题,加勒比海问题和革命的战略,策略问题等等。

主席:你们向伍修权,李启新同志谈的巴西情况我已经看到,对我了解巴西情况有帮助,但有个别问题还是不很清楚。

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特:我们完全可以提供更多的材料,可能上次我们没有能力讲清楚,但完全听您支配,如果您对报告有什么意见,或对我们党的别的问题有什么意见,我们很愿意听,不认为这是什么干涉内政。我们党的历史虽然相当老,但是还相当落后。

主席:比如讲,外债达三十亿美元,这是什么性质的外债?包括不包括外国投资?

特:外国企业投资不算,纯粹指贷款而言。

主席:是财政性质的吗?

特:是的。巴西几年来都是靠借债过日子,以债还债,欠债越来越多。实际上,现款是拿不到巴西的。

主席:外国对重工业和轻工业的投资,你们报告中只有百分比,没有绝对数字?报告中只有一九五五年到一九六一年的投资总额,为五亿多美元,但是一九五五年以前的不知道。

特:在北京,同志们也提过这个问题,我们提不出绝对数字。可以说,单单美国的直接投资,肯定会超过二十亿美元。

主席:并且还不止美国投资吧?

特:还有其他国家。巴西目前的外国投资除美国以外,有西德,法国,英国。日本在巴西的经济力量也重新恢复。西德投资增加很快,主要在汽车工业和机器制造业。日本主要是在造船工业。意大利也有一些投资。

主席:是不是还有加拿大?

特:加拿大有很大的企业,例如光与电公司,但它现在大部分股票都在美国手里,真正加拿大的资本,侵入不太大。总的说来,美国投资的百分比在下降,但绝对数在增加。我们

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的报告中提到汽车年产量达到十三万辆,大部分是掌握在外国资本手里,主要是美国资本手里。围绕着汽车市场,就产生出一系列的辅助型工业,比如汽车零件的制造业。这些汽车零件的工业大多数是民族资本,他们同外来资本发生关系。今年改总统制以后,巴西要向美国清偿八亿美元的债务。上个月派了财政部长圣地亚哥丹塔斯到美国去,打算重新同美国借款,已归还债务。原来打算借十五亿美元,供三年之内归还债务之用,但美国只借给今年应清偿的债务的数目,其余的留着以后抓巴西的辫子。这同古拉特的三年计划有关,同争取进步同盟也有关。它没有触动造成经济困难的原因。他们依靠争取进步同盟的三年计划,并不符合巴西人民的利益。

主席:可不可以说:巴西民族资产阶级已经掌握了政权?

特:目前这个政府还是成分复杂的。我再报告中已经讲过,巴西目前局势的特点,是巴西民族已经分成了两个集团,一个是爱国的集团,一个是卖国的集团。民族资产阶级当中的爱国集团,是属于我们反帝统一战线的。卖国集团则包括民族资产阶级和大庄园主中的卖国派。因此,巴西政局的特点,是这两个集团之间经常发生冲突,有时候缓和,有时侯尖锐。一九五四年曾一度尖锐化,发生了瓦加斯自杀的事件,我在报告里已经提到。最近一次是去年七月五日的总罢工斗争。所有这些斗争,是用什么办法解决的呢?整个过程都是在资产阶级领导下,斗争的结果是资产阶级实行妥协。目前的政府是一

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个妥协的产物。通过妥协,政府越来越巩固自己的地位。这个政府有大庄园主,大资产阶级与民族资产阶级的代表参加,总之是个妥协的产物。最近我们看到新华社的电讯,似乎都整过程又尖锐化了。 陆军部长克鲁埃尔企图把第一军长阿尔维斯解除职务,这个陆军部长同大庄园主有联系,而第一军长则同左派力量有关系,代表民族资产阶级。可以说,资产阶级在政权中的地位在巩固,但还没有完全能够控制。他们想要进一步控制,因此要利用工人阶级的支持,向工人作经济性的让步。当然,这些让步同时也是由于工人阶级本身的斗争促成的。

主席:瓦加斯可不可以说是代表民族资产阶级?

特:不能。瓦加斯是南里约格朗德州的大庄园主,是通过一九三零年的运动上台的。一九二九年纽约证券交易所发生风暴,世界经济危机影响到了巴西,民族资产阶级要找出路;美国又在巴西大肆活动,要排斥英国在巴西的势力;当时资产阶级在发展中,他们想趁此占据政权中的地位;小资产阶级对一九二四年的起义失望,也认为这是一个时机;党当时在思想上和组织上都有很多弱点;在这种情况下,美国出钱支持瓦加斯集团,取得了运动的胜利。瓦加斯成了总统,但是美国还没有能够完全取代英国的地位而代之,因为英国继续反抗它。一九三二年,同英国有联系的圣卡塔林那的咖啡庄园主进行暴动,政府被迫同他们达成协议,瓦加斯向美国取得贷款,来津贴这些咖啡庄园主。德国趁这个机会也侵入巴西,成立了法西斯的全体主义行动党,这个党的确也形成了一个

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群众运动。一九三七年,瓦加斯借口反共,成立了新国家,一直到一九四五年,完全实行个人独裁。一九三八年,瓦加斯在一艘巡洋舰上发表了演说,声称巴西完全支持希特勒。一九三八年,发生了一次受到柏林喝彩的政变。后来,由于第二次世界大战的发展,美国对德国宣战,人民反法西斯斗争高涨,瓦加斯才向德国宣战。经过了这一次战争,英国在巴西的利益保不住了,因为他们自顾不暇,轴心国侨民的企业,收到了巴西政府的控制。美国在巴西东北部开辟了空军和海军基地,强迫巴西签订了华盛顿协定,取得了在巴西的绝对优势地位。瓦加斯在这段期间对工人运动也作出了让步。一九三零年以前,工会是不为政府承认的,经过了不断的斗争,到了这时候政府就不得不承认了。但是瓦加斯是抄袭意大利的劳工宪章来制定巴西的劳工法的,其中规定了一套工会的权利和社会保险条例,把自己装扮成工人运动的保护者。一九四五年十月二十八日政变,瓦加斯又被排除在政权之外。瓦加斯在资产阶级当中是比较聪明的,也懂得使用干部。当时世界大战结束,人民起来要求民主,大赦政治犯,瓦加斯见形势不对,采取了宁可割掉一个指头也要保存一条胳膊的政策,对民主运动作了让步。但是到一九四五年,他终究还是被排除在政权之外。一九五零年选举,他又再度当选为总统,对帝国主义改而采取了强硬的政策,由国家垄断石油,规定工人的最低工资,企图同欧洲其他国家取得联系。当时全国正处在大选前夕,瓦加斯想争取自己这一派的胜利,不敢采取强硬的手段对待群众运动,

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于是,最反动的力量,在美国支持下,举行了政变。当时瓦加斯本来完全有条件反抗,当时的民主力量,包括我们党在内,都主动同他联系,要他武装人民。但是当时镇压机器发生了分裂,如果瓦加斯反对政变,将引起内战。瓦加斯很明白,他宁愿自杀,也不愿人民起来砍掉他的胳膊。不能说,瓦加斯是民族资产阶级的代表。

主席:瓦加斯死后,政府由哪一派组织?

特:有副总统卡菲菲洛继任。这个人是参加搞政变的,他没有能力阻止群众运动。于是又一次进行选举,库比契克当选,支持他上台的就是原来支持瓦加斯的。帝国主义想阻止他上台,想搞政变,但一九五五年十一月十一日,军队中的民主力量发动了反政变,组织了他们的政变。库比契克上台,他是典型的资产阶级代表,不过,我不是他是民族资产阶级的代表。他的理论是发展论,他要推动巴西资本主义的发展,但要依靠美帝国主义,又不取消大庄园制的结构,以广大群众的牺牲为代价。一九五五至一九五六年,他在巴西建立了汽车工业,当时本来完全可能靠民族资本来经营。已经有了民族资本的企业,开始生产汽车。美国发现不能阻止民族资本的发展,便亲手插手汽车工业的发展。库比契克还向日本寻求资金,建立了造船厂。也向西德寻求资金,建立了汽车厂和重工业。库比契克的时期是经济发展的时期,但这是靠美国资本和其他外国资本空前的输入而进行的。同时,库比契克也利用了各外国资本的矛盾。后来选举,夸得罗斯上台。夸德罗斯是圣保罗

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大资产阶级的代表。圣保罗的大资产阶级拥有的资本占巴西资产阶级的百分之五十至六十。夸得罗斯和库比契克不同,库比契克是靠通货膨胀搞经济建设,而夸德罗斯是通过财政紧缩。夸德罗斯的政策,对内方面是服从国际货币基金组织,对外方面是主张各国的自决权的原则。在他任内,开始同各社会主义国家复交,加紧压榨人民,但又寻求社会主义国家的市场,同美国有矛盾。因此,夸德罗斯被迫辞职,发生了八月事变。当时副总统古拉特正在中国访问,法西斯将领宣布不让古拉特回国,要建立法西斯统治,国内个人罢工,反对建立法西斯专政,南里约格朗德州以布里佐拉为首,坚决反对建立法西斯独裁。布里佐拉组织了法制广播网。当时驻在南里约格朗德,圣卡塔林那和巴拉那州的第三军,徐步不服从里约热内卢的法西斯将领的命令,北进到圣保罗和巴拉那州交界处,建筑工事。法西斯将领命令军队向南进军,但整团整营的军队不听命令,发生分裂。当时南里约格朗德州已组成了一百多个营的工人志愿军,准备应战。

主席:这些工人志愿军有武器没有?

特:还没有武器,他们上街游行,进行军事训练。果亚斯州有两千农民,持着土制的武器,向巴西利亚进军。当时我们党的方针是促进内战爆发,我们的口号是保卫宪法法制,取消大庄园制,摆脱美国的控制。古拉特回国,他是绕道经南里约格朗德州回到巴西的。由于领导权在民族资产阶级手里。他们知道如果内战爆发,会让共产党人组织千千万万的武装。于是他们采取了妥协的政策,组织了议会制政府,使整

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个运动瘫痪下来。根本问题没有解决,矛盾又尖锐化。两大派的冲突,一九六二年又尖锐起来,这次运动主要是政治性的总罢工。当时快要举行选举。有些部长辞职,参加竞选。古拉特不得不重新组织内阁。美国企图组织一个完全听命于他们的新内阁,民族资产阶级则想加强他们在政府中的地位,双方大肆活动,矛盾斗争尖锐。在这种情况下,工人在党的领导下进行了总罢工,提出组织民族主义民主政府,高举彻底土改的旗帜,但是没有力量能阻止新的妥协。资产阶级和大庄园主害怕群众起来,又重新妥协,于是问题没有解决。同年八月十五日,又发生了新的罢工,有两百万工人参加,结果资产阶级又妥协,问题还是没有解决。去年十月选举,最反动的力量遭到了某种失败。趋向是:反动的力量孤立,革命的力量前进,群众的觉悟有很大提高。谈过这次选举,民族资产阶级在政府中的地位加强了,露骨的美国的代理人在议会选举中没有当选。美国在巴西的头号代理人拉瑟达在瓜纳巴拉州主要的候选人都落选了。东北伯南步哥州的最反动的候选人也落选了。米格尔阿拉伊斯当选为州长,他是被攻击为共产党候选人的。伯南布哥州是东北部的中心,对其他州有影响,这一州在东北部工业化最高,人口最多。虽然我们对新当选的阿拉伊斯不抱幻想,但这肯定有利于我们在东北的工作。我们在国会内也组成了民族主义议会阵线,所有政党都有议员参加。刚才谈到的所有方面,都划分为两大集团。

主席:古拉特属哪一个集团?

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特:古拉特说是属民族主义议会阵线,但实际上他与这个阵线有矛盾。

主席:他不属于工党吗?

特:他是工党的领导人,但他不执行工党的纲领。工党的纲领也提彻底土改,没收帝国主义企业。我们现在是面临两大集团斗争的局面,新的现象是:工人运动有进展,农民运动也有发展,统一战线也有发展。那么结论呢?虽然我们做了很大的努力,但是民族资产阶级还掌握这领导权。它象一个踢球的淘气孩子,先把球扔出来让大家玩,当球正打得激烈,快打进球门时,就忽然把球拿走,让大家打不成。基本的革命力量不够强大,不能进抓住这个球。基本上是两派争夺,前途可能导致非常巨大的斗争。党的结论是自己以往没有足够的准备,对民族资产阶级过高估计,把和平道路绝对化。几次发生两大集团斗争尖锐的情况,党都无法控制,犯了错误。虽然如此,巴西革命力量还是在发展,农民运动在进展。近年来,我们一直在积蓄力量,促进局势的发展,两派斗争因而尖锐。掌握领导权的力量妥协,问题不解决,又发生新的冲突。关于民族资产阶级,几年来的结论:每当人民起来,他们就同帝国主义妥协。但妥协以后,又有斗争。弱点在哪里?农民运动很弱,原因之一是我们低估农民运动的意义。

主席:民族资产阶级究竟属哪一个集团?还不清楚。说它属卖国集团吧,它又有冲突,说它属人民这一派吧,它又同卖国派妥协。

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特:我认为民族资产阶级仍是参加民族主义民主统一战线的。民族资产阶级分两派,一派投降卖国,一派同人民合作。

主席:后面这一派是不是已经参政了?

特:有一部分。

主席:布里佐拉是不是典型的民族资产阶级?

特:布里佐拉一向同古拉特很接近,但他们也有矛盾,布里佐拉对古拉特政府也提出过批评。布里佐拉基本上代表南里约格朗德州的资产阶级,这地方的资产阶级同其他地方的资产阶级不一样。圣保罗等地的资产阶级起初是通过咖啡,可可,糖等的输出,由庄园主变为资本家的,因此这些资产阶级同土地有联系,同时又是大庄园主。但是南里约格朗德州很早就把土地分成小块。资产阶级是从手工业发展起来的,同土地没有关系。

主席:可不可以说,布里佐拉也是登上政治舞台的人?

特:他在全国有威望,从前担任过州长。

主席:现在呢?

特:现在已经不是州长了。据巴西法律,不辞去现任州长,就不能竞选州长。后来他就到瓜纳巴拉州竞选州议员,得到了三十万张选票。一九六一年的八月危机中,他曾得到很多人的支持。

主席:他同你们有没有联系?

特:有。曾经同他一起斗争过,但我们对他不抱幻想。他是古拉特的左臂。他搞电视广播,对我们有好处。因为巴西电视事业很发达,光是在里约热内卢,就有六十万部电视机,他在

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电视讲话中主要的口号是反帝反封建的。

主席:今天你告诉我的这些情况很有好处。现在我还不能讲我的意见,因为你们代表大会的文件我还没有看。但我相信你们在实践中会找到回答的,政策究竟对不对,考实践来证明。中国曾走了很长的一段路,开始时只晓得要革命,究竟如何革命?走什么道路?搞不清楚。我们犯过右倾的错误,同资产阶级只有团结没有斗争。也可以说,修正主义的错误我们犯过,教条主义的错误我们也犯过。一九二七年,中国有过大革命,那时也有过很强大的工人运动,农民在我们领导下,也有几千万组织了起来。那时就是没有准备民族资产阶级会叛变,即是说,没有准备蒋介石会叛变。因此革命失败了。我们被迫拿起武器,打了十年内战。在内战期间我们又犯了三次左倾错误,一直到内战将结束,错误才得到纠正。抗日战争期间,我们在党的政策上才走上了正确的轨道。因为翻过了右的和左的错误,可以作结论,因此使得全党统一起来。日本投降后,蒋介石又攻打我们,我们就有了准备,不仅有政治上组织上的准备,而且还有军事上的准备。因此把蒋介石的进攻打下去了。最好你们能研究我们中国走过的曲折道路。

伍:他们已准备派十个人来。我们准备他们来了之后把中国革命经验系统的向他们介绍。

主席:如果中国经验可以参考的话,不仅仅是正面的,而且还有失败的经验,可以供你们参考,重要的失败的经验。很感谢你们到中国来,向我们介绍了你们的情况,也了解了我们

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的情况。谢谢你们,并代我问候普列斯特斯同志。

特:我们一定把这个问候带回去。我愿再一次表示我们在中国期间的接待的感谢。从前很多不清楚的问题,现在都搞清楚了。我们准备把这些都带回去。请原谅我占用了您这么多的时间。

主席:你们是第一次来中国的吗?

特:是的。但因为我们有工作,所以很快就要走了。

主席:以后还有机会的。

(毛主席等同外宾合影后握别)

十八日的谈话

主席:昨天同你们谈过,今天很高兴同你们吃顿饭,借此机会还可以谈点问题。我看你们这个国家有很好的条件,有八百五十万平方公里,七千多万人口,资源很丰富,前途很有希望。资产阶级是不能解决你们国家的问题的,应该依靠无产阶级的领导,依靠广大农民和革命的知识分子,依靠你们根据马列主义原则,根据你们自己的具体情况,独立的决定你们的方针政策。无产阶级额领导的革命,总有一天会胜利的。照抄外国经验,这过程也是难免的。我们这个党长期也是照抄外国,犯过右的和左的错误,就是我昨天大体上谈的那一些,一直到建党十四年以后,在长征的遵义会议上才开始批评这些错误,改变路线,领导机构才独立考虑自己的问题。我们采取的方针,是帮助犯错误的同志改正错误,采取

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帮助的态度,所以我们团结党的绝大多数。除个别的人跑到敌人那里去的之外,另有个别的人死也不承认错误,如王明,他在共产国际管过你们拉丁美洲工作的。王明很轻率,他曾犯过教条主义的错误,使革命力量损失百分之九十以上,抗日战争初期,又犯过投降主义的错误,相信国民党比相信共产党还要厉害。他的路线受到批评,我们还把他选为中央委员。我们就是采取这种方式方法对待犯错误的同志,团结了犯错误的人的大多数。因此,我们当时比较团结的,并且因而取得抗日战争的胜利。抗日战争结束后,蒋介石第二次叛变,反对共产党,但是我们已经有了准备。

和平过渡的口后是资产阶级欢迎的,如当做党的路线很危险。一九二七年第一次大革命的失败,虽然当时没有提和平过渡的口号,实际上也是没有夺取政权的决心。第一个要负责人的是当时的右倾机会主义的领导者陈独秀,广大党员不懂得防备资产阶级叛变,不理解资产阶级会叛变,怎样对付资产阶级的叛变,没有这个思想准备。蒋介石的叛变教育了我们,他搞白色恐怖。你们国家现在还没有白色恐怖,资产阶级给你们事实上合法,你们利用这个合法自由是必要的,并且很有利,因为可以发展群众运动。我看你们的材料谈到革命的领导权问题。什么叫领导权?领导谁?第一个领导农民,农民是半无产者同小有产者。半无产者是贫农,小有产者是中农,无产阶级对于占人口大多数的农民如果不争取不团结,就是让资产阶级去争取去团结他们。第二个是要领导民族资产阶级左派,不是民族资产阶级右派,民族资产阶

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级右派是不能接受无产阶级领导的。民族资产阶级右派经常同帝国主义和封建势力妥协。第三个是要领导知识分子中的左派和中间派。民族资产阶级是剥削的阶级,但为了夺取政权,为了他们自己的阶级利益。他们在一定阶段也利用工农的力量。你们国家据你们昨天说工党有个彻底土改的纲领,是不是这样?

特:是的。

主席:好像你们现在还没有制定一个解决土地问题的纲领,而他们已经有了一个,在这个问题上他们走在你们前头。

特:更准确地说,他们只是一个土改口号,不能算是一个土改纲领,只是在他们纲领许多项中有这么一项。

主席:他们不会实行的。民族资产阶级说是一回事,做是一回事,漂亮话讲得多,做是另外一套。工人阶级,农民,小资产阶级加上民族资产阶级左派即一切能反对帝国主义和封建主义的民族资产阶级分子,虽已占人口绝大多数,但是要夺取领导权,没有比工党更革命的口号和纲领是不可能的。纲领,口号和行动不仅要与反动派相区别,而且也要同中间派相区别。你们知道,欧洲现在有很多共产党同社会民主党差不多,只有些细节的区别,没有原则上的区别。这样下去,这些党在群众面前就会显得没有存在的必要。例如英国已有工党,法国有社会党,意大利有社会党还有萨拉盖特的社会民主党,群众会问:有了这些党,究竟还需要不需要共产党?英国不但工党而且保守党,还有美国肯尼迪的民主党,他们把许多口号都拿过去,如他们也要全面和彻底裁军。不

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仅要全面,而且要彻底。过去美国政府是反中立主义的,现在是赞成中立主义。问题是对全面彻底裁军和中立主义各有各的看法,他们说的全面彻底裁军即是全面彻底扩军。他们所谓中立主义即是打着中立主义招牌站在他们方面的。这样的中立主义,他们不赞成。这是跟帝国主义要有区别的问题。帝国主义的口号,他们要全面彻底裁军,他们也赞成中立主义,于是怎样同他们区别发生问题,同样,同各国反动派,帝国主义走狗加以区别也成了问题。至于同工党怎样加以区别,不严格同他们区别,又同他们讲团结,势必有一天工党会说:你们加入我们这个党好了,因为彼此差不多。我们同国民党两次合作,他们即提出这个问题说:你们既然信仰我们的三民主义,承认共产主义包括在三民主义之内,那就不必单独有一个共产党好了。你们说对付民族资产阶级比较困难,对付反动派比较容易,这看法是对的。我们过去历史上就是这样,当时民族资产阶级同我们建立统一战线的时候,我们党的右倾机会主义就随着发展,一九二七年右倾机会主义使我们革命遭受失败。一九三七年抗日战争初期,我们如果不克服右倾机会主义,中国革命就不可能胜利。内战期间,同民族资产阶级的统一战线破裂的时候,民族资产阶级叛变,这时又发生左倾机会主义。最近伊拉克的经验很值得主义,不知道你们注意到这个经验没有?

特:过去不清楚,到这里后知道得多了一些。

主席:伊拉克的形势本来是比较好的。

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伍:一九五八年卡塞姆取得政权的时候,伊共力量很大。

主席:布加勒斯特会议以后,伊共天天讲和平过渡,天天反教条主义,几次决议都攻击中国,把我们当成主要敌人,真正的敌人看成朋友。敌人就在和平过渡,反教条主义中来专门整我们。事先他们不知道,卡塞姆政府也不知道,不知道他们的朋友明天早上要把他们杀掉。一天早上就把政府推翻,卡塞姆被杀,伊共总书记和其他好些领导人也被杀,抓了很多人。

伍:抓了一万八千人,杀了四千人。

主席:某些情况类似中国的一九二七年的白色恐怖。不同的是我们在白色恐怖后,即接受教训,同国民党作斗争。伊共没有这样做,看来没有很大的反抗。因为和平过渡,反教条主义,群众在政治上软弱,人民解除了武装,替反革命开辟了道路。我们同许多外国同志都讲我们一九二七年和伊拉克的经验,至于各国应采取什么路线各国自己决定。中国的意见只作为参考,革命实践会证明和判断那些正确,那些不正确。做判断的是革命实践社会实践,而不是任何别的人。事物的发展往往不以人的主观愿望进行的,不一个人的愿望或政党的愿望,甚至不以阶级的愿望,往往违背我们的愿望而进行。如中国的一九二七年的革命失败是违背我们愿望的,我们要胜利而结果失败,拿起武器打仗没有经验。(对伍)你是先去苏联学习还是先打仗的?

伍:先参加工作后去苏联学习。

主席:这使我们处于被动,但被动可能转化为主动,敌人强迫我们搞武装斗争,我们就敢于武装斗争。当时怎样打仗法没有经验,

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因为没干过这一行。既然蒋介石强加于我们,我们只好干,这就走上武装斗争的轨道。一打就是二十二年,到一九四九年才建立人民共和国。一九四五年世界大战刚结束的时候,人民的愿望,我们的愿望,党的愿望都想不要打仗了。但事变的发展违背我们的愿望,帝国主义同蒋介石把战争强加给我们。但一九四五年我们已跟一九二七年不同了,我们有了准备,昨天我对你们说过,不只有政治上的准备,而且有组织上的准备。一面准备,一面希望有和平时期。那时帝国主义和蒋介石都希望有一个短暂的和平时期,以便布置他的进攻。所以那时他们也同我们谈,做出了很好的决定:和平建国。就在和平建国的口号下,帝国主义和蒋介石完成了战争的准备,但在进行准备的同时也不放弃必要的规模比较小的进攻。一面谈判,一面还是照样打我们。规模不很大,大概在日本投降后十一个月就全面进攻我们。如果我们在这以前不准备好,不准备在日本投降后夺取政权,敢于胜利,那就会被打垮。但这同一九二七年不同,那时没有夺取政权的决心,因此没有准备,只是向好方面想,不从坏方面想。所有中国的这些经验只作为参考,外国经验到底是外国经验,你们有自己的经验,我们只是作为共产主义者,把须要说的意见说给同志们听。我讲得太多了,你们还有什么问题没有?

特:关于巴西的工党,这个党是瓦加斯创办的,目的是要引导工人脱离革命,公开说要使工人摆脱共产党的影响。工党今天是最能代表民族资产阶级利益的党。至于纲领,毛泽东同志说得很正确,还只是停留在纸面上。他们在工人,爱国军人中

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有影响。关于我们对待工党的方针,我们希望听听毛泽东同志的意见。我们主张实行彻底土改,消除基本经济部门中的外国资本,成立民族主义民主政府,即统一战线政府。同时为了争取工党的基层,也指出他们领导上不执行他们自己的纲领,要是他们能执行自己的纲领,我们也愿意支持。并且我们还采取夺取工党各地基层组织的策略。

主席:我只能一般地说,不能具体讲。代表民族资产阶级的工党,比之卖国派更不好对付,因为代表民族资产阶级的工党有各种欺骗性的口号,它会作出某种资产阶级制度所许可的让步,如言论,集会,结社等自由,目的是消灭真正的共产主义。这是你们自己讲的,这个看法很对。因此,对这样的党不能一概反对,不能照反对卖国派一样来反对民族资产阶级政党。因此势必使你们要赞成他们一些东西,同时根据他们要消灭你们这一点和他们只讲不做,你们就仍有很多文章可作。巴西这样的国家,这样的革命,民族资产阶级革命任务还未完成,你们的工业还在发展,当然这样的工业发展主要是依靠外国资本,或者按你们的说法:外国资本同民族资本三分之一和三分之二的关系,是不是这样?

特:三分之二是民族资本,外国资本在巴西的绝对数在增加,但比重在减小。我们根据这一点,认为巴西要发展根本不需要外援。在我们党的文件上讲,我们完全有力量发展自己的工业,外国资本反而妨碍我们的发展。我交给同志们的书内附有一张表,上面有官方的数字,证明十六年来外国资本输入巴西比流出去的还少。这是民族资产阶级同帝国主义矛盾的原

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因之一。

主席:我还不知道你们的钢铁工业是民族资本还是外国资本?

特:基本上是民族资本,包括国营资本,如里约热内卢州的伏尔塔雷顿达钢铁厂,年产钢二百万吨,是国营的。

主席:完全没有外国资本参加的钢铁工业?

特:在米纳斯吉拉斯州有一个比利时—美纳斯钢铁公司,但产量比伏尔塔雷顿达少得多。名义上是比利时的,实际上是美国资本。

主席:主要经济命脉是掌握在民族资本手里还是在外国资本手里?

特:外国资本控制汽车工业,圣保罗与里约热内卢两个市的电力生产与分配的百分之八十,肉类冷藏和包装业的全部,磨粉和面粉加工业的全部。现在国家也搞电力工业,如保罗阿丰索的水电站和其他企业都是国营的。总之,外国资本的绝对数增加,相对数减少,民族资本的比重增加。这里,我想向毛泽东同志解释一个问题,即现在争取进步联盟正计划把帝国主义的企业转移到同人民不易发生摩擦的部门。如电力,电车等公用事业部门,他们要提高利润即要提高收费,这同人民的利益直接冲突,他们要求转移资金。民族资产阶级同他们妥协,帮助他们转移,付出高额的赔偿金,吧这些公用企业收归国有。这问题不仅在巴西,在全拉丁美洲也这样。争取进步联盟在农村也进行活动,企图建立自己在农村的阵地,他们搞改良主义,如把巴西东北部分发食品,这些都是美国的剩余物资。不论怎么搞,总

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之不能动根本制度,只是在农村扶植富农阶层作为依靠。有些人如前圣保罗州州长卡瓦略平托也帮助他们这样搞。要农民高价买地主的土地,结果只有有钱的农民才能买,形成富农阶层。

主席:这不能解决问题的。俄国沙皇一八六一年解放农奴,也培植一批富农,结果没有消灭封建势力,反而产生新的矛盾,新的富农同失去土地的新贫农的矛盾。(看表)

已经不早了,是不是先吃饭去?

以下是饭桌上的谈话

主席:对外国资本的问题,根据你们的材料能不能说:由于外债已达三十亿美元,虽然外国直接投资的比重小于本国资本,但加上外债,帝国主义资本仍然占优势?

特:是的,外国直接投资,加上外债,又加上巴西对外贸易主要依赖单一的市场即美国市场的这一事实,可以说占优势的仍是帝国主义。

主席:那么,可不可以说巴西还是一个半殖民地半封建国家?

特:是个半封建半独立的国家。

主席:任务是反帝反封建?

特:是的,是民族民主革命、

主席:这点,拉丁美洲是不是大致相同。

特:是的,大致一样,但经济发展水平不同,巴西是世界上不发达国家当中最发当的国家,去年钢的产量有三百多万吨。

主席:巴西的生活水平在拉丁美洲占第几位?

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特:很不平衡,南部的生活水平同阿根廷,乌拉圭差不多高;北部和东北部很低,同玻利维亚,巴拉圭差不多;但平均说来,低于阿根廷和巴拉圭。

主席:阿根廷的工业是不是比较发达?

特:有些工业,但外国投资比重很大。最近政府把石油让给美国,受到国内的反对。

主席:委内瑞拉的工业怎么样?

特:委内瑞拉除了石油外,没有什么工业。

主席:哥伦比亚呢,听说工业占拉美第四位?

特:哥伦比亚工业近年来有很大发展。

主席:巴西的粮食能不能自给自足?

特:小麦不能,要进口。面粉厂都掌握在美国资本手中,他们阻挠巴西小麦的生产。近年来小麦生产一直在下降,从一百二十万吨降至四十万吨。但是大米,玉米,木薯等不但能自给,而且还有剩余,可以出口。

主席:巴西有没有旱灾的问题?

特:东北部由,其余地区的河流分布比较均匀。东北有一个寒灾多角形地带,没有河流经过。稍微南一点,有一条圣佛兰西斯科河,但它向北只伸到塞尔希佩就出海了。将来可以设法使它改道,再向北延长,流经旱灾多角形地区的中心,就能解决这一地方的旱灾问题。不过这个工程十分浩大,目前还谈不上。

主席:阿玛逊河听说是全世界水量最充沛的河流,是不是?

特:是的,有些地方旱季也有四十多公里宽,洪水季节达六十多

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公里宽。但有一处一共还不到一百公尺宽,整条河的水都在这几十公尺当中流过,来势很大,将来可以在这里搞一个很大的水电站。但阿玛逊河并不是世界上最长的河,最长的还是密西西比河。

主席:我们的长江是世界第四位。第一是密西西比,第二是尼罗河,第三是阿玛逊河,第四就是长江。现在这地方干旱,也利用太湖的来自长江的水来灌溉。

特:我们这次来的目的毛泽东同志一定很清楚,关于国际共产主义运动分歧的问题,我们看了材料,也听了彭真同志的介绍,已经很清楚。我们知道今天这里并不是谈这种问题最适合的地点,不过,毛泽东同志有什么话要补充的话,我们也很愿意听。

主席:我没有什么要补充的。(离开餐桌让外宾到沙发上坐)这里坐。

以下是饭后的谈话

主席:取得政权的无产阶级,如不注意反动派还要复辟,政权是保不住的。

现在我们的年青人,革命时才多大,现在的大学生,那时也不过七八岁,不知道过去的困难,没经历过阶级斗争锻炼,要靠老一辈的人把过去的经历告诉他们。 (对翻译)你今年几岁?(翻译答:三十二岁。)解放时才十八岁。(又问在座的伍,江,李,杨等年龄后)教育青年要靠他们四位,而不能靠他(指翻译)。青年人没有经历过

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激烈的阶级斗争,要靠他们父亲一辈的革命者把阶级斗争的经验告诉他们。我们现在有些青年农民不会做农活,也要靠老农来教。(看表)我谈得多了,就谈到这里罢!谢谢你们远道而来。

特:今天我再一次代表我们代表团感谢在中国这段期间,中国同志给我们这样好的招待,特别是让我们有机会同毛泽东同志见面,我们觉得很高兴。我应该说,我们是由中央委员会选派到中国来的代表团,目的是代表中央为下一次中央全会作一些准备工作,我们下一次的中央全会要第一次讨论国际共产主义运动的分歧问题。我们上一次的中央全会之所以还不能讨论这方面的问题是因为我们当时只拥有片面的情况。这次我们到中国来,才知道我们过去所知道的情况不仅是片面的,而且是错误的。我们回去后要努力使党从事实出发,把问题摆在应有的地位,进行原则性的讨论。谢谢同志们给我们提供了宝贵的材料。祝同志们在社会主义建设中取得再大的成就,祝毛泽东同志身体康健,长寿!

主席:谢谢!

(外宾起身告辞,毛主席送至门外)