Search in
ADD SEARCH FILTER CANCEL SEARCH FILTER

Digital Archive International History Declassified

July 27, 1972

RECORD OF THE FIRST MEETING BETWEEN TAKEIRI YOSHIKATSU AND ZHOU ENLAI

This document was made possible with support from the MacArthur Foundation

CITATION SHARE DOWNLOAD
  • Citation

    get citation

    Zhou Enlai met with Takeiri Yoshikatsu and he mentioned the international status of Taiwan while claiming that "the realization of relations between Japan and China is the desire of all citizens."
    "Record of the First Meeting between Takeiri Yoshikatsu and Zhou Enlai," July 27, 1972, History and Public Policy Program Digital Archive, 2001-298, Act on Access to Information Held by Administrative Organs. Also available at the Diplomatic Archives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan. Obtained by Yutaka Kanda and translated by Ryo C. Kato. https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/118833
  • share document

    https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/118833

VIEW DOCUMENT IN

English HTML

1972

July 27th 16:00~19:00

Takeiri [Yoshikatsu]-Zhou [Enlai] Dialogue (First Round)

Zhou

Takeiri

Zhou: Although relations are still shallow, I am pleased that the mutual wishes of both the Chinese and Japanese peoples are being represented. Because you have arrived shouldering such an important duty, I felt that I must see you as soon as possible. I see that Prime Minister Tanaka [Kakuei] has to some degree appreciated the opposition party and the All-Party Parliamentary Group’s promotion of friendly relations between China and Japan. I surmise that he understands the amount of effort that you gentlemen have put in. When Prime Minster Tanaka spoke at the Liberal Democratic Party’s Japan-China Society, it seemed that he spoke while paying attention to many different factors. In your opinion, Mr. Tekeiri, can this bring a new feeling to Japanese politics?

Takeiri: I believe it is correct that Prime Minister Tanaka appreciates the long-term efforts of Mr. Matsumura [Kenzo] and Mr. Furui [Yoshimi] and others for the promotion of Japanese-Chinese friendship. I too am honored to be one stone in the foundation for a new house.

Zhou: I believe that Prime Minister Tanaka surely understands that the realization of relations between Japan and China is the desire of all citizens. Foreign Minister Ohira [Masayoshi] has also recognized the Japanese people’s attitudes.

This is something that the esteemed members of the majority and minority party fully understand. The Komeito [Komei Party] has put in great efforts. Mr. Takeiri’s stabbing at the hands of right-wing elements is proof of this. I express my condolences to Mr. Takeiri. Judging from my own experiences, I differentiate between those who truly wish to do good and those who do not. I highly praise Prime Minister Tanaka for having emphasized peace despite diplomatic agitation since the establishment of his new cabinet. I welcomed Prime Minister Tanaka’s address during the reception held on the 9th.

Takeiri: I am thankful for Premier Zhou’s kind courtesy.

Zhou: It has been 23 years since the establishment of [the People’s Republic of] China [in 1949]; in similar times China has responded on two occasions.

The first was during the Hatoyama [Ichiro] Government [1954-1956], when Mr. Takasaki [Tatsunosuke] was sent to the Bandung Conference. I was able to directly relate to Mr. Takasaki how I welcomed such actions. Because the Hatoyama Government was putting its effort into Japan-Soviet issues, however, there was not too much effort placed in Japan-China affairs. Prime Minister Tanaka, on the other hand, is putting effort into Japan-China issues and believes that reestablishing diplomatic relations between Japan and China is important. We too have to reciprocate. I truly believe in Prime Minister Tanaka’s thoughts on the reestablishment of diplomatic relations between Japan and China…

I requested for Mr. Ninomiya [Bunzo] to relay my thoughts to Mr. Tanaka. I believe the Chairman is cognizant of this.

Takeiri: Ninomiya returned to Japan on the 23rd. The Minister of International Trade and Industry [MITI] Tanaka [Kakuei], Ninomiya, and myself met on the 24th. The message was relayed without fail.

Zhou: Thank you very much, Chairman and Vice-Chairman for your cooperation.

Takeiri: I believed that Prime Minister Tanaka’s courage has been reinvigorated by Ninomiya’s delivery of Premier Zhou’s message.

Zhou: I believe that sincerity is important and necessary.

Takeiri: I believe Premier Zhou’s message was the primary factor for his final decision.

Zhou: It is 27 years since the war [between China and Japan], and 23 years since the establishment of New China. I believe that our two countries cannot continue the circumstances that have lasted until now. I have looked through your discussion with Liao Chengzhi. Is there anything you would like to add today?

Takeiri: We have nothing to add to the discussion we held with Mr. Liao. The Komeito has strongly adhered to the Three Principles for the Restoration of Diplomatic Relations between Japan and China.

We are quite conflicted about bringing such a discussion to Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira.  

Zhou: We believe this will not be a problem. The important thing is that you have raised the five items and that China has supported this. The other parties have decided after discussion. The Komeito has taken a leadership position in raising the five issues. We greatly admire this. Even during the reporters meeting after returning home, no one could raise an issue about the leadership of the five issues. If the Komeito were to form the government, we would not have to say anything. We would only have to send a telegram of congratulations. However, that is not the case now. In reality, the Liberal Democratic Party is in power. However, we see great changes to come. There is some truth to what Prime Minister Tanaka has said about the opposition party and the Japan-China Friendship Parliamentarians’ Union.

During the presidential elections, even Fukuda [Takeo] has said that if he were to become Prime Minister, he would go to Beijing.

It is said that Fukuda of the 1970s is not Sato [Eisaku] of the 1960s. Therefore, Fukuda will be unable to oppose what Prime Minister Tanaka has said. The two ministers have also joined the cabinet. Here in lies Prime Minister Tanaka’s skills. He said that even if they do not join the cabinet, he will resolve the matter by the 13th and hold the inauguration ceremony. The issue was resolved on the 12th. He disrupted history by becoming the first Japanese prime minister to not have graduated from college. This is the start of a new Japan. I believe that the Komeito’s conducting of a democratic movement within the popular movement will be beneficial. This will entail having to face economic difficulties head-on and enduring difficulties. Economic development up to now has been too fast.

Takeiri: The life that Prime Minister Tanaka has lived is a great influence upon this. Prime Minister Tanaka has decided to differentiate himself form the Sato Government. He has decided to differentiate himself from the politics of the conservative party that had prevailed until now.

Zhou: Of foremost importance is the decision to face hardship head-on.

Second, opposition from within the party must be dealt with. Third, the support of the opposition party and citizens must be secured. Is the position of the opposition party that they will support Prime Minister Tanaka if he is correct and oppose him if he is incorrect?

Takeiri: It is a matter of fact that the opposition party will cooperate on Japan-China issues.

Zhou: The [Japanese] Communist Party cannot oppose this outwardly, so they will likely do so from behind the scenes. It is difficult for them to say, but they likely are hoping that [Soviet Foreign Minister Andrei] Gromyko comes to Japan. In this regard, Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira have announced that they will go to Hawaii to meet [US President Richard] Nixon on the 31st of August and 1st of September. I appreciate that Mr. Takeiri has called this an important first step.

We have expressed that it is necessary to include titles within the text. It is a different way of putting things but the meaning is the same. This is an issue for the whole of the Komeito and the wish of the Japanese people. Japan-China issues are not an exclusive thing. We have expressed the same to Nixon and [Henry] Kissinger. This will not dilute Japan-US relations. We have heard from Kissinger as well. Kissinger came to Beijing from Tokyo. Kissinger had met with the Minister for International Trade and Industry, Tanaka. First with Sato, then Fukuda, then with everyone from the opposition party, and finally with Mr. Tanaka. This is very interesting. That the meeting with Mr. Tanaka was the final meeting was reassuring. When asked if he would oppose friendly relations between Japan and China, Kissinger answered that he would not. Prime Minister Tanaka’s involvement in the matter was fine example good planning on his part.

I believe it is a good thing that he is going to Hawaii after sending Chairman Takeiri to China.

I hope to frankly clarify the issues.

Takeiri: I too have spoken frankly about Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira’s discussion.

Zhou: I believe that is a good method. I believe that is the correct method.

Takeiri: I will not act tactically with you either.

Zhou: I have faith in Mr. Takeiri in this regard. I differentiate between the Komeito’s position and the position from which Prime Minister Tanaka speaks. The Komeito has domestic concerns, and has a different opinion from that of the Liberal Democratic Party. However, at this stage, the Komeito will be unable to press their views. I am thankful for Mr. Takeiri’s decision to share with us Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira’s thoughts.

Takeiri: That is the only thing that I can do now.

Zhou: There are things that the nation must do even after relations are reestablished, however, it is not limited to relations between states, but includes relations between citizens. As Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira have said, we must first establish diplomatic relations between China and Japan, exchange ambassadors, and mutually recognize each other.

Second, it is better to do so earlier than later. Having waited for three years, we do not mind, but it may be better for Prime Minister Tanaka if this is done earlier.

Takeiri: Light usually follows darkness. It is the sooner the better to reestablish diplomatic relations and establish bilateral relations.

Zhou: It is likely beneficial for the general elections as well. The current term is until next year. Will the opposition party not want for the term to last until next year?

Takeiri: The term lasts until the end of next year. If a new cabinet is established, it is a matter of fact to dissolve Parliament and make an appeal of confidence to the citizens. However, Prime Minister Tanaka has expressed that Japan-China relations is of more importance. Arrangements made for Japan-China issues is indicative of this.

Zhou: I have previously expressed the wishes of the Chinese people.

According to Foreign Minister Ohira’s predictions, Jiang Jieshi [Chiang Kai-shek] seems to be preparing to vacate the embassy [of Taiwan in Japan]. What does Mr. Takeiri think about this? Is this a reliable prediction?

Takeiri: Yes, this is reliable.

Zhou: There is similar news coming from Taiwan, however, I cannot make a judgment until I see it. There will likely be people opposed to this. Japan seems to be sending friendship delegations to and receiving delegations from Taiwan. Kishi [Nobusuke] and Kaya [Okinori] had made a fourteen point declaration. After Prime Minister Tanaka made ten points at the Liberal Democratic Party Japan-China Normalization Meeting, Kishi made fourteen points. Kishi and Kaya are trying to create two Chinas. It seems that outward opposition cannot be made.

They cannot do anything substantial, but they are sure to try to disturb things. Kishi is such a person.

Takeiri: Yes, Kishi is such a person. Kishi has succeeded Yoshida [Shigeru], but if reestablishment of Japan-China relations succeeds, Kishi will be ruined.

Zhou: Kishi is more treacherous than Sato.

Takeiri: I believe so.

Zhou: Sato had left a parting threat. The [Japan-US] Security Treaty was Kishi’s doing as well. Does Japan take Taiwan into consideration because of the economy, or is it because of the Japanese citizens residing in Taiwan? According to previous statistics, there are 6,000 Japanese wives married to Chinese men [in Mainland China]. If relations were normalized, they would be able to visit their hometowns. If relations are not normalized, there is the concern that they will not be able to return. Those people are the people who gave their all in the war of liberation. We are grateful for those people—the doctors and nurses who married Chinese people. They have children in China and parents in Japan. They are embracing the hopes of both of these sides.

War criminals have been accounted for. They have all been made to return. This was due to the efforts of Mr. Takasaki, Mr. Matsumura, and Endo Saburo. Economic relations with Taiwan are Japanese investments…

Takeiri: Postwar investments and government loans make up a yearly $800 million trade relationship.

Zhou: Is it not a major problem for Japan that Japan exports more than it imports? China has not said anything, but Japanese exports are increasing for Japan-China trade as well.

Takeiri:  Yes, I am sorry for this.

Zhou: On the contrary, Japanese technology is advanced; there is a need to learn from Japan. From henceforth, major trading firms will make ties rather than friendship trading companies. Rather than decreasing Japan’s exports, this will likely increase exports, as has been the trend up to now.

I will not publicly say so to Mr. Yoshii, but there is no problem in this regard. I told him to not worry. The postwar and prewar are different eras. In the postwar, there were no diplomatic relations, but friendly correspondences did not stop. This is different from the Untied States. Kishi was unable to severe this tie either. This is friendship between peoples.

Takeiri: I am thankful for this.

Zhou: This is an issue between our countries. The ties of trade and friendship are deep. It has been 27 years since the war, but relations between Japan and China span 2,000 years back to Qin Dynasty. The previous 27 years is only but a moment.

Prime Minister Tanaka is trying to create diplomatic ties between Japan and China based on the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence. I am absolutely in favor of this. A peace treaty is a possibility, but I would like to make this a treaty of peace and friendship. I believe the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence should be included in this. We ought to resolve things through dialogue rather than through the use of force. Neither the Americans nor Soviets can oppose this.

The future overflows with brightness. If peace and friendship are established between Japan and China, this would bring about a conclusion to the problems enveloping the Far East.

Prime Minister Tanaka has concluded that the timing is right to normalize Japan-China relations, and so the Liberal Democratic Party Japan-China Society has made this the basic principle. We agree with this way of thinking. (At this point Wang Xiaoyun commented…)

“Two things must be arranged with regard to the two basic agreements reached at yesterday’s Liberal Democratic Party Japan-China Society. One of these is the joint declaration on establishment of diplomatic relations, and after this, a peace treaty.”

Zhou: This is basically in line with our opinion. I believe that if Prime Minister Tanaka or Foreign Minister Ohira came to Beijing and made a joint declaration (a joint statement would be fine too) to establish diplomatic relations, this would be the same method as Mr. Hatoyama did with the Soviet Union [in 1955]. I want to conclude a peace and friendship treaty. I believe that doing so would bring a peace of mind to the world, and I believe this is good.

If they come to Beijing and if there is no joint declaration, the visit would have no meaning.

There are three problems. I hope that Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira would have peace of mind.

(1) It will not touch on the Japan-US Security Treaty

If diplomatic relations between Japan and China are restored, it will take away the effect [of the Japan-US Security Treaty] on the security of China.

(2) It will not touch on the joint statement between Sato and Nixon [of 1969].

Announcing a joint declaration could attain a peace and friendship treaty. The rest could be left to lawmakers. Political fidelity is important.

(3)  Regarding the Japan-Jiang Treaty

Prime Minister Tanaka has expressed time after time that he recognizes the Three Principles on the Restoration of Sino-Japanese Diplomatic Relations. Is this to mean that he holds the principles in high esteem?

Takeiri: Yes, this is correct.

Zhou: While you say that, you do not want to directly address this issue. Is this correct?

Takeiri: As soon as a joint statement is made and diplomatic relations are established the Japan-Taiwan Treaty will be nullified.

Zhou: I have one question in this regard. Prime Minister Tanaka has said that the People’s Republic of China is legitimate, but is this to denote a legal meaning?

Takeiri: Yes, this is correct.

Zhou: In China the opposite of legal is un-legal, which is to mean illegal. The Jiang government is illegal. We were reinstated to the UN last year [1971]. The Nationalist Government was kicked out. The People’s Republic of China has become legally recognized internationally as well. Are the Tanaka cabinet’s lawyers trying to convey something by using the word ‘legitimate?’

Takeiri: I do not believe so. Prime Minister Tanaka has made an agreement with Foreign Minister Ohira and Mr. Miki [Takeo]. The Three Principles for the Restoration of Diplomatic Relations are included in this agreement. It is implied. This is as Prime Minister Tanaka’s determination. However, at the moment, there are domestic circumstances that does not allow for this to be made clear. Something we hope for you to understand is that, if Japan takes the position that the Japan-Taiwan Treaty is no longer legally valid, then there would be confusion domestically. We hope to gain your understanding on this matter.

Zhou:  In China, ‘legitimate’ is a word that deals with pian’an [translator’s note—to be be content to retain sovereignty over a part of the country]He explained the ancient, historical meaning of legitimate in relation to the historical word pian’an).

This is an issue regarding a noun, so this can be solved.

Would it be possible for the word ‘legal’ to be used instead?

Takeiri: I would like to convey to them to make such a change. I am sorry for the inconvenience.

Zhou: I would like to consider what you have said and give an answer before you go home.

I will consider that third issue. The first and second issues are easily solved.

Additionally, the China-US Joint Declaration acknowledges that Taiwan is a territory of China. What sort of issue is this for Japan?

Takeiri: I do not believe that there is an issue.

Zhou: Jiang Jieshi also recognizes that China is one and that Taiwan is one of the provinces of China. He calls Taiwan a province.

The governor of Taiwan. A man named Wu Kuo-chen [K.C. Wu].

Takeiri: Can it be said that the expression used in the China-US Joint Declaration regarding Taiwanese territory is loose?

Zhou: Yes. This is different from the standpoint of Japan. America means to prolong the normalization of diplomatic relations. There is the issue with elections. [George] McGovern is saying that he will immediately recognize China, but we do not want to intervene in their controversy. There is no controversy among Chinese peoples that objectively speaking, China is one and Taiwan is a province of China.

Takeiri: I would like to confirm. Is it necessary for Prime Minister Tanaka to clarify in his joint declaration during his China trip that (1) the People’s Republic of China is the sole legal government and (2) Taiwan is a territory of China?

Zhou: We are currently considering this point. Please give us a little more time to think. Prime Minister Tanaka has implied that he recognizes the three principles espoused by China. Today is for exchanging opinions.

We will report to Chairman Mao [Zedong], and discuss the issue within the [Chinese Communist] Party.

Chairman Mao has said that he will renounce the right to seek reparations. If we seek reparations, this would place a burden on the Japanese people. This is something that the Chinese people fully understand. During the Qing Dynasty, China paid 250 million taels in reparations to Japan. The Qing Government placed heavy taxes [on the people] as a result. I do not know if they paid the full amount. Somewhere between 400-500 million taels were paid to the Eight-Nation Alliance [Austria-Hungary, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States]. If roughly converting to 400 million dollars, this is not a large amount. However, it is not right to place such a burden on the people.

I think it would be alright to include in the joint declaration China’s renunciation of its right to seek reparations.

Takeiri: We are very grateful.

Zhou: It is a matter of course. Diplomatic relations will be restored after twenty some years of friendly relations. We must think about the next generation.

We will not make difficult demands. I believe you should to return to Japan quickly so that diplomatic relations can be restored sooner.

Chairman Takeiri has said that the middle of September would be good. We welcome this very much.

This would come after Japan-US talks, but this is not a problem. If possible, I believe that September would be good. If Foreign Minister Ohira were not going to the UN, then the end of the month would be good. However, if this is not possible then it would be the middle of the month, and time would be quite short. Between four to five days.

Takeiri: If it is the end of September, would it have an effect on your National Day?

Zhou: It is not a problem.

Takeiri: I think a direct flight would be a good idea. JAL and ANA will carry a dance troupe as well. We would like to invite pilots from China to conduct a test flight, as well. For the purpose of safety, we will guide them once they leave Japanese airspace.

I believe it would be good if they left Beijing and flew to Tokyo through Shandong Province.

Takeiri: The next JAL pilot has to prepare for Prime Minister Tanaka.

Zhou: A flight test for Prime Minister Tanaka is also possible.

Takeiri: We would like to seek your guidance on the flight from Tokyo for Prime Minister Tanaka as well.

Zhou: Let us conduct the test flight, and do so before the Peace and Friendship Treaty is drafted. Let us create an aviation and fisheries treaty. Commercial and navigation treaties are difficult, but in reality such activities are already being conducted. There are Japanese ships in Chinese harbors. Among the nations in the world, Japan comes to China the most. As Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira have said, it is impossible to roll-back the desire for friendship between Japan and China.

Takeiri: What do you think about a declaration to end hostilities?

Zhou: I would like to consider the topic until you go back to Japan.

It is necessary to make a draft. If news about the Japan-China Society is true, would it not be the case that preparations are already being made?

If the cabinet decides to do so after you return to Japan, then I will entrust Prime Minister Tanaka to decide whether or not to send someone who can be trusted with preparing a draft.

Takeiri: If Prime Minister Tanaka’s decision is quickly made, there could be the possibility of him coming without such preparations. Because of the nuisance of the mass media, it is unsure whether such a draft could be made in secrecy. There are cases when even bureaucrats do not keep secrets.

Zhou: Kissinger also commented on that point. Kissinger has made a small group within the White House.

Takeiri: If we are able to receive China’s favorable agreement, then it may work better domestically for Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira to come directly.  

Zhou: I think that idea is correct. You are in China. The reason America conducted relations with China in secret is because the US had certain difficulties as well. They went over Japan’s head.

Takeiri: It is off the mark to criticize Nixon’s China visit.

Zhou: Sato is confident, but his confidence seems to be on the wane of late. Prime Minister Tanaka’s China policy is out in the open, but will America stand in the way in some manner?

Takeiri: I believe that the two will not base their final decision on what the US believes. Even if the US has some demands, I believe those demands will be easily put to rest.

Zhou: I can feel a sense of independence from the press conference as well. It must be true if he is able to tell the press. Independence is important given that the Japanese economy as grown to this extent.

With regard to the Taiwan issue, we will release Taiwan. We hope to endeavor as peacefully as possible.

America knows this as well, but please tell this to Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira. It would be a whole other case if Jiang Jieshi attacks, but if the opportunity is right, this issue will solve itself. It will not affect security or the Japan-US Joint Declaration. The point regarding China would lose its effect.

Let Japan and China also reestablish diplomatic relations, and through a friendship treaty, let us contribute not only to peace in Asia, but world peace.

As the China-US Joint Declaration makes clear, China does not seek hegemony. I believe China and Japan will follow through on this. It cannot be said unequivocally that two great powers would not vie for hegemony. Let us realize this goal and effect the world positively.

Takeiri: As you say, I trust that China will not become a superpower. I trust that China is a peaceful nation.

Zhou: Please come to China many times, and criticize [us] where we make mistakes. It is necessary to prevent mistakes in the next generation, and a helping hand from a friend is also necessary.

Let us help each other for all eternity.

I believe that you also think that another war between our two nations would be mutually disadvantageous for us, as well as to the world.

Takeiri: I have come to China separately from my role as a member of the Komeito.

Zhou: You have come not as a member of the Komeito, but as a friend. You have come bearing a message form Prime Minister Tanaka, who is a supporter of the Komeito. I see no contradiction. Regarding domestic affairs, Prime Minister Tanaka and the Komeito are unlikely to come together.

I believe it will be advantageous to the next generation if our generation reestablishes diplomatic relations and friendship.

Because America did so over the heads of Japan, I do not believe that Japan can be criticized for going ahead.

Takeiri: I believe power politics will make an appearance.

Zhou: The contradiction appears here.

Takeiri: Politically, we must end the age where the opposition party has opposed the Liberal Democratic Party.

They oppose for the sake of opposition. I believe we must actually have an opinion. We must also strengthen connections between opposition parties.

Zhou: Support it if it correct, and criticize it if it is incorrect. It is necessary to make advances in such a manner. The development of the economy is one great challenge.

Takeiri: It is the greatest challenge.

Zhou: It is a problem on a global scale. It is a problem for Europe, as well.

Takeiri: I think that Japan’s industrial structure requires drastic reforms. You said last year that the countries of Asia must not be made into the food supplying countries of Japan.

Zhou: Exactly. Purchasing power must be gained. To have eggs, one must keep many chickens.

Takeiri: The public must cooperate with regard to the pollution problem, as well.

Zhou: The nation must raise a certain amount of money, entrepreneurs will also have a responsibility to give money, and the greater public will have the role of monitoring this process.

JAPANESE (TRANSCRIPTION) HTML

1972

7月27日    16.00~19.00

竹入.周会談. (第一回)

周: 交わりは浅いが中日両国人民の願望を表していることを嬉しく思う。重大な任務をもって来られたので早く直接お目にか丶って話しをしなければと思っていました。田中首相は、野党や議連の中日友好運動をある程度評価しているのですね。貴方々が努力し道をつくったと見ているのですね。田中首相は自民党日中協で話しをしましたがあらゆる方面に関心を与せて(心を配って)話しをしていると思う。竹入先生の見方として日本の政治に新しい雰囲気をもたらすことが出来るでしようか?

竹入: 松村先生をはじめ、古井先生等が長い間日中友好を積み重ねてきたことを評価していることに間違いはないと思います。私も家を建てる石垣の石の一つであり光栄に思っています。

周: 田中首相もこの事は十分考えに入れている日中国交を実現することは全人民の願望だと思う。大平外相も日本人民の動向を認識している。

それは20年来、野党、与党の一部の先生方にも劣ることではないと思います。公明党は大きな盡力をされました。竹入先生が右翼に刺れた事はその証拠です。竹入先生に慰問の意を表します。長い経験から、真にそれを上手くやっていきたいかそうでないかは区別をしています。新内閣が成立したその日から田中首相は外交面で激動の中に平和を求めると主張していますがそれは正しいと評価します。私は直に9日の宴会で田中首相の発言を歓迎し{前1文字ママ}たしました。

竹入: 周総理の御好意に感謝しています。

周: 中国が出来て23年になりますがそうゆう時に中国が答へたのは2回あります。

 第一回目は鳩山内閣の時、高崎先生をバンドン会議に派遣したときです。その時、直接高崎先生にその行動を歓迎する旨伝えました。鳩山内閣は日ソ問題に努力していたので力が入りませんでした。田中首相は日中問題に力を入れ日中国交回復は大事業だとしています。私達も、それに答えなければなりません。田中首相の日中国交回復を願う気持ちが間違いないと思います。{上記「高崎」はママ、高碕達之助のこと}

 二宮先生に田中さんへの伝言を頼みました。委員長もご存知でしよう

竹入: 23日に二宮が帰国し、田中通産大臣と私と二宮の三人で24日に会い、間違いなく伝えました

周: 有がとうございました。委員長、副委員長が大変協力をしています。

竹入: 二宮への周総理の伝言が、田中首相に勇気をふるい起させたと思います

周: 内因が大事で必要だと思います。

竹入: 周総理の伝言が決意させた要因であると思います。

周: 戦後27年、新中国が出来て23年になりました。海一つへだてた二つの国が今迄の現象を続けることは出来ないと思います。廖先生に話されたことは私も目を通しました。今日、補足する事はありませんか。

竹入: 廖先生に申し上げた以上の補足は有ません。公明党は日中復交三原則を掲げ強い斗いをして来ました。

 田中首相、大平外相に会ってこの様な話しを持って来ることは大分悩みました

周: それはかまわないと思います。大事な事は先生が五項目をか丶げそれを中国が支持したことです。他党は話し合いで決めました。公明党は主導的に五項目をか丶げました。敬服しています。帰国してからの報告会でも、五項目が主導的であった為、誰れも文句が云えませんでした。公明党が政権をとったならこちらは何も云わなくても済むでしょう。激励電報だけ打てばい丶でしよう。しかし、それは今日的ではありません。現在、自民党が政権をとっています。しかし、大きな変化が見られます。この点では田中首相の云ったこと(野党と日中議連の努力)は一理あります。

この総裁選挙の争いのときに、福田でさえ自分が総理になったなら、北京に行くと云っている。

70年代の福田は60年代の佐藤ではないと云っていました。従って田中首相の云うことに福田は反対する訳にはいかない。二人の大臣も入閣しました。こ丶に田中首相の才能が出ている。入閣しなくても就任式をやり、13日迄に解決できると云った。12日に解決しました。大学を出ない首相が日本で初めて生れ、歴史を破りました。これは日本の新しいきざしです。公明党は大衆運動の中に平民運動をやっているわけですがこれで貴方々にとってもプラスですね。経済的に困難を突破する為、苦しみに堪えねばならないでしよう。今迄の経済発展が早過ぎたのでしよう。

竹入: 田中首相の歩んで来た人生が大きく影響しています。田中首相は佐藤政治に決別したいという決意をもっています。今迄の保守党の政治と決別したいという決意を持っています。しかし、決意が実行されるかどうかはこれからのことです。

周: 先ず第一に困難と突破する決意が大事です。

第二に、党内の反対をとり去らなくてはなりません。第三に、野党と人民の支持が得られなくてはなりません。野党の立場は田中首相が正しければ支持し、間違へば反対するということですか。

竹入: 野党は日中問題では協力するのが当然です。

周: 共産党も表面では反対出来ないから裏から破かいするでしよう。云い難いけれども内心ではグロムイコが早く日本に来てもらいたいという考えでしよう。この間、田中首相と大平外相は8月31日、9月1日にハワイでニクソンと会って来ることを発表しました。竹入先生はこのことは重要な一環であるといったことを私は評価しています。

 私たちは、文章の中に題目が必要であるという表現をしていますが、い丶方はちがいますが意味は同じです。それは公明党全体の問題と、日本人民の要求です。日中問題は排他的なものではありません。これはニクソンにもキッシンヂャーにも云いました。これは日米間に水をさすものではありません。キッシンヂャーにもきいたことがあります。キッシンヂャーは東京から北京へ来ました。キッシンヂャーは田中通産大臣に最后に会いました。最初に佐藤、次に福田、そして野党の皆さん、そして田中さん、これは面白いことです。最后が田中さんだったことについて良い安配でした。キッシンヂャーは日中友好に反対するかときいたら反対しないと答えました。そうゆうところに手をつけたことは田中首相のい丶段取りです。

 竹入委員長を中国へ寄したあとでハワイへ行くことはい丶ことだと思います。

 ざっくばらんに問題点をはっきりさせたいと思います。

竹入: 私も田中首相、大平外相の話しをざっくばらんに云いました。

周: それはい丶方法だと思います。正しい方法だと思います。

竹入: 私も周総理にかけひきや、安配はしません。

周: この点は、先生を信頼しています。公明党の立場と、田中首相の話をする立場とを区別しています。公明党は国内問題もあり、自民党と主張もちがいます。しかし、今の段階では公明党の意見を押しつけることは出来ないでしょう。竹入先生の判断に依って、田中首相、大平外相の意見を云って下さることは有がたいと思っています。

竹入: 今はそれしかありません

周: 国交回復後も国家がやらねばならないこともあるが政府間のみならず民間のこともあります。先ず第一に、田中首相、大平外相が云っているように、中日両国間に国交を樹立、大使の交換、相互に承認し合う。

第二に、遅くやるより早い方が良い。私達にとっては23年待ったから差しつかえないが田中首相にとっては早い方が良いと思います。

竹入: 好事魔多しということがあります。国交を回復し外交関係を樹立することは、早ければ早い方が良いと思います。

周: それは総選挙に対しても、有利でしよう。今回の任期は来年まであるのでしよう。野党は来年まで続けたくないというのでしようか。

竹入: 任期は来年一杯までありますが、新内閣が誕生した場合、解散して国民に信を問うのは常識ですが田中首相はそれより日中が大事だと云っています。日中問題の段取りからそれが分ります。

周: 中国人民の願望は前から出してあります。

大平外相の予想では蒋介石が大使館をひき上げようとしていると見ていますが竹入先生はその意見をどう思いますか。頼りになりますか

竹入: 頼りになります

周: 台湾からもその様なニュースが入っているが事実を見なければ判りません。反対する人達がいるでしょう。親善団体を送ったり、台湾から代表団が来たりしていますね。岸、カヤが14ヶ条の声明を出していますね。田中首相は自民党日中正常化協議会で10ヶ条を出したら岸は14ヶ条を出しました。岸、カヤは、二つの中国を作ろうとしています。表むきには反対出来ませんね。

大きいことは出来ないがかきまわすでしょうね。岸はそうゆう人ですか。

竹入: 岸はそうゆう人です。吉田のあとを岸が受けついで来ましたが、日中国交回復が出来れば岸はダメになるでしょう。

周: 佐藤より岸の方が陰険ですか。

竹入: そのように思います。

周: 佐藤は最后にすてぜりふを残しましたね。安保も岸ですね。日本の台湾への配慮は経済と居留民ですか、前の統計ですと日本の婦人が中国人と結婚したのは6千人と云われています。国交回復したら里帰りが出来るでしよう。国交回復されないと再び帰れないという心配があります。そうした方々は、解放戦争に力をつくされた方々です。医者とか看護婦が中国人と結婚し、私たちは彼等に感謝しています。中国に子供が居り、日本に両親がいる。その双方に希望を抱いているのでしよう。

 戦犯は解決済みです。全部帰らせました。高崎先生、松村先生、遠藤三郎先生の努力でした。台湾との経済関係は日本の投資でしよう。{高崎はママ}

竹入: 戦後の投資と政府借款と年間8億ドルの貿易関係です。

周: 日本は輸入より輸出が多く、これは日本にとって大きな問題になっていますね。中国は何も云っていませんが日中貿易も日本の輸出が多くなっています。

竹入: これはすいません。

周: いヽえ、日本の技術が高い、習う必要があります。これから友好商社より大手商社との関係を結ぶことになります。日本の輸出を少くすることではなく今迄より、ふえると思います。

古井先生に対して公に云わないがその点は問題ありません、安心して下さいと云っておきました。戦后と戦前はちがいます。戦后は国交はないが友好的往来はとだえませんでした。それはアメリカとちがうところです。岸もこれをとだえさせることは出来ませんでした。人民の友好です。

竹入: 感謝しています。

周: お互いの問題です。貿易と友好の結びつきが深いのです。日本と中国は戦后27年ですが秦の時代から2,000年もの友好がありこの27年は一瞬のようなものです。

 田中首相は、日中両国に平和五原則に基いて国交を結ぼうとしています。全く賛成です。平和条約も可能ですが、平和友好条約にしたいと思います。この中に平和五原則を入れれば良いと思います。武力ではなく話し合いによって解決するというふうにすれば良いと思います。アメリカもソ連もそれは反対出来ません。

前途に光明は満ちております。日中間が本当に平和、友好になれば極東に渦巻く具体的問題の解決になります。

田中首相は日中国交正常化の機は熟したと断定的に云い、自民党日中協ではそれを基本原則としている。その精神に私たちも同感です。(こヽで王暁云氏が)

 「昨日の自民党日中協で初歩的な一致を見た二つの段取りがあります。その一つは共同声明で国交回復、その后、平和条約締結です」

竹入: これですと、基本的に私たちの意見と一致しています。私は田中首相、大平外相が北京に来られ、共同宣言を出し、(共同声明でも良い)国交を樹立することは、鳩山さんとソ連もそのやり方でした。平和友好条約を結びたいと思います。そうすると全世界が安心するし、そうした方が良いと思います。

北京に来てそうした共同宣言が無いと無意味になります。

 三つの問題があります。田中首相、大平外相に安心してもらいたいと思います。

<1> 日米安保条約にはふれません

日中国交回復が出来たら中国えの安保の効力は無くなります

<2> 1969年の佐藤、ニクソン共同声明にもふれません。

共同宣言が発表されて平和友好条約でいけます。あとは法律家にまかせれば良い

政治的信義が大事です。

<3> 日蒋条約の問題

田中首相は就任してから度々中国の政府が主張している復交三原則を理解していると云っていますが、これは尊重するという意味でしょうか。

{<1>などは原文ではマル1など、以下同じ}

竹入: そうです。

周: そうゆういヽ方で直接ふれたくないという考え方をしているのですね。

竹入: 共同声明が出来、外交関係が樹立したその瞬間から日台条約は無効になります

周: そこで具体的問題が一つあります。

田中首相は中華人民共和国は正統と云っているがこれは合法という意味になりますか。

竹入: そうです。

周: 中国では合法の反対は非法、不法という事ですが、蒋政府は不法です。昨年は国連に復帰しました。国府は追い出されました。中華人民共和国は国際的にも合法となったのです。田中内閣の法律家たちは何か正統という言葉に意味をもたせているのではないでしょうか

竹入: ないと思います。田中首相は大平外相、三木さんと協定しました。その中には復交三原則は含まれています。黙示として含まれています。田中首相の決意としてです。しかし、現状では明らかに云えない事情が国内にあるという事です。唯こヽで改めて御了解を得たいことは日台条約は本来、不法、不当という立場をとれば日本国内に混乱をおこします。この点の御理解を頂きたい

周: この正統ということは中国では偏安に対する云葉です。(こヽで中国の古代からの歴史に於ける正統、偏安の云葉の意味が歴史的に述べられた)

 名詞の問題ですから解決出来ます。

合法といういヽ方にして頂けますか。

竹入: そのように改めるよう話したいと思います。ご面倒をかけます。

周: 先生が云われたことはお帰りになる迄に検討してご返事をいたします。

この第三の問題は検討しておきます。一、二、は簡単です。

 もう一つの問題は台湾は中国の領土の一部ということは中米共同声明でもそれを認めておりますが日本にどんな問題がありますか。 

竹入: 問題はないと思います。

周: これは蒋介石も含め中国は一つだと認めていますし、台湾が中国の一つの省だと認めています。台湾を省と呼んでいますよ。

台湾の省長、コウギョクジュという人です。

竹入: 中米共同声明に於ける台湾の領土の表現についてゆるやかなものと云えるがいかがでしょうか。

周: そうです。日本の立場とは違うでしよう。アメリカは国交正常化を延したいという気持があります。選挙の問題があります。マクガバンは直ちに中国を承認すると云っていますが、彼等の論争に介入したくありません。客観的に中国は一つであり台湾は中国の一つの省だということは、中国人同志には論争はありません。

竹入: 確認をいたしたい。田中首相の訪中の共同声明の場合

<1> 中華人民共和国は唯一合法政府

<2> 台湾が中国の領土の一部であることを明確にする必要がありますか。

周: その点を考えている最中ですがもう少し考えさせてもらいたい。田中首相は中国の主張の三原則を理解していると含蓄を持たせた云い方をしている。今日は意見の交換です。

毛主席に報告し、党内で討議します。

毛主席は賠償請求権を放棄するといっています。賠償を求めれば、日本人民に負担がか丶ります。そのことは中国人民が身をもって知っています。清の時代には2億5千万両日本に賠償しました。清朝はこれを利用して税を重くしました。これを全部払ったかどうか知りません。8国連軍の賠償は4億~5億両でした。4億ドル位で今では大した額ではありませんが負担を人民にかけることは良くない

賠償の請求権を放棄するという事を共同声明に書いても良いと思います。

竹入: お礼の言葉もありません

周: 当然のことです。20数年来の両国人民の友好によって国交が実現するのですから私たちはこれから次の世代を考えなくてはなりません。

私たちは決してむづかしいことは云いません。早く国交を樹立する為、早く来られらた方が良いと思います

竹入委員長は9月中が良いということですが私達は歓迎します。

日米会談のあとになりますがこれは問題ありません。出来たら9月が良いと思います。若し、大平外相が国連に出なければ下旬がよろしいですが、それが出来なければ中旬ということになりますが、その時は時間が短くなります。4~5日になりますか

竹入: 9月下旬では国慶節への影響がありますか。

周: さしつかえありません。

竹入: 飛行機直行は良い考え方だと思います。今度、日航と全日空が舞劇団を運んでくれます。中国から飛行士を派遣し試験飛行をさせたいと思います。安全のために、日本の領空を出たら案内します。

 北京から山東省の上空を通って東京に帰れば良いと思います。

竹入: 今度の日航の操縦士は田中首相の準備をしなければなりませんか。

周: 田中首相の試験飛行も可能です。

竹入: 田中首相のときは又東京から案内していたヾきたい。

周: 試験飛行をして平和友好条約を書きあげる前に実行しましょう。航空 漁業協定をつくりましょう。通商と航海はや丶こしいが実際は今でもやっているのです 日本の船が中国の港に着いています。世界の中で中国には日本の方が一番おいでになっています。田中首相、大平外相が云っているように、日中友好の願望はもどることが出来ません

竹入: 戦争終結宣言をどのようにお考えでしょうか

周: 先生がお帰りになる迄検討します。

草案を作っておくことも必要でしょう。日中協の話のニュースが確実であれば準備をしているのではないでしょうか

竹入先生が帰って内閣が決定すれば草案準備に信頼出来る人を寄こすか否かは田中首相にまかせます。

竹入: 田中首相の決断が早いとその準備なしに、直接来ることもあり得るかも知れません。日本はマスコミ公害で草案が秘密に出来るかどうか判りません。官僚も秘密を守らない場合があります。

周: その点はキッシンヂャーも云っていました。キッシンヂャーはホワイトハウスに少グループを作っています

竹入: 私が出発までに中国の御好意を示していだ{前1文字ママ}ければ田中首相、大平外相が直接来る方が国内もうまくいくと思います

周: その考えは正しいと思います。先生は中にいるのですから アメリカが中国との間に秘密でやったのはアメリカに困難があったからです。日本に頭ごしのお詫びに行ったでしょう

竹入: ニクソンの訪中を批難するのは的外れです

周: 佐藤は自信が強かったが最后に自信が無くなったようです。田中首相の対中政策が明らかになっていますが、アメリカが足をひっぱることはないでしょうか。

竹入: 二人の決意としてはアメリカの考え方をきいて決断することはないと思います。若しあってもアメリカの要求をはねつけると思います。

周: 記者会見からも独立性がうかヾえます。記者に云えるなら本物でしょう。

日本の経済がこ丶迄発展したことから独立が大事です。

 台湾に対しては台湾を解放します。出来る丈平和的に努力したいと思います。

 アメリカも知っています 竹入先生から田中首相、大平外相に伝えてください。蒋介石が攻めてくれば別ですが・・・機が熟すれば自然に解決します。安保や日米共同声明に影響はしません。中国に関する部分は効力を失ってしまいます。

日中間も国交回復し、友好条約を締結してアジアの平和のみならず 世界の平和に貢献しましよう。

 中米共同声明にあるように中国は覇権を求めません。このことは中国と日本が実行すると思います。二つの大国は覇権を争らそわないとは云い切れません。これを私たちが実行し、世界にい丶影響を与えましよう。

竹入: 周総理の云うように、中国は超大国にならない事を信じます。中国が平和国家であることを信じます

周: 何回も中国え来て、間違ったことは批判して下さい。次の世代のことを防止することが必要であり友人の助けも必要です

永遠に助け合いましょう

貴方々も もう一度戦争が起るという事が日中にも 世界にも不利だとお思いでしよう

竹入: 私は今回の訪中について公明党として本来の立場を離れて訪中しました。

周: 今は公明党の党の立場ではなく、友人として来ているのです。公明党を支持している田中首相の伝言をもって来ているのです。矛盾していないと思います。内政については公明党が田中首相と一緒になる事はないでしょう。

 私たちのこの世代で国交を回復させ、友好を回復させておけば次の世代に有効だと思います

 アメリカも頭ごしでやったのだから日本が先に進むことは非難できないのではないでしようか

竹入: 大国主義は出て来ると思います。

周: 矛盾はそこにあります。

竹入: これからの政治の面で野党が自民党に反対して来た時代を終らせなくてはならない。

反対の為の反対です。これからは意見を持たなくてはならないと思う。そして、野党間の結束を固めなければなりません。

種々の問題が大きな大衆運動にならなければならないと思う。田中内閣が転換したのだから野党も変わらなくてはなりません

周: 正しければそれを支持し、間違えばそれを批判する。それによって時代を前進させる必要がありますね。経済の発展の問題が大きな課題ですね。

竹入: 最大の課題です

周: 世界的に問題です。欧州もそうです。

竹入: 日本の産業構造の抜本的な変革が必要と考えています。周総理は昨年、アジアの国々を日本の食料供給国にさせてはならないと云いました。

周: その通りです。購買力をつけなくてはなりません。タマゴをとるためには、ニワトリを沢山飼わなくてはなりません。

竹入: 又公害問題も国民が協力しなければなりません。

周: 国家からある程度のお金を求め、企業家も自分の責任に於いてお金を出し、人民大衆はそれを監視する立場になるでしょう。

ORIGINAL SCAN PDF

It appears your Web browser is not configured to display PDF files. No worries, just click here to download the PDF file.

Click here to view the PDF file in a new window.

PDFs cannot be printed inline in the page. To print a PDF, you must first download the file and open it in a PDF viewer.