Record of the Second Meeting between Takeiri Yoshikatsu and Zhou Enlai

[1972]

July 28th 19:00~20:45

Takeiri [Yoshikatsu]-Zhou [Enlai] Dialogue (Second Round)

Zhou: I checked the news from yesterday, and it was not the Liberal Democratic Party Japan-China Society, but an article in the Tokyo Shimbun. The article in the Tokyo Shimbun is different. The theme is different, too.

It places emphasis on ending the state of war if Prime Minister Tanaka [Kakuei] is to visit China.

If Prime Minister Tanaka visits China, our governments will make the following joint declaration. (1) The state of war between Japan and China has ended. (2) Relations based on peace, friendship, and neighborly conduct will be restored. And finally…(reads out the article from the Tokyo Shimbun)

If Prime Minister Tanaka will not recognize China, as the reporting in the Tokyo Shimbun suggests, then why is he coming to China? You have said that the creation of a draft cannot be done in Tokyo, but I believe that doing so in Tokyo would prolong things.

Takeiri: Japanese news often writes articles that are not pertinent. Based on the conversation I had with Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira [Masayoshi], this article does not seem to reflect the two’s thoughts.  

Furthermore, our thoughts have not been leaked anywhere. The only people, other than the two who may know of this, is Chief Cabinet Secretary Nikaido [Susumu]. Presumably, Miki [Takeo] does not know of this. Since the incident, the regulations should be under good control in the Foreign Ministry.

Zhou: It would be ridiculous for Prime Minister Tanaka to come to China just to end the state of war. Could this be Kishi [Nobusuke] and Kaya’s [Okinori] doing?

The news these days is making comparisons to the Soviets, but this is bending the truth of history. (Reads an article published in the Yomiuri Shimbun on the 27th.)

Takeiri: The Yomiuri Shimbun is better. Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira’s ideas that I mentioned will not change.

Zhou: I do not think at all that they will. The fact that they trusted you indicates their determination.

Takeiri: I believe so, as well.

Zhou: If we were to follow an arrangement such as the one laid out in the Tokyo Shimbun, then we would be wasting time.

Yesterday, you mentioned that light is usually followed by shadows, but it would be a waste of time and we do not know what kind of roadblocks lay ahead. Leaving this recent article aside for a moment, is there a segment of people that are worried about Jiang Jieshi [Chiang Kai-shek]?

Takeiri: I exchanged opinions with Foreign Minister Ohira. The Foreign Minister’s decision is to have the Prime Minister visit China. It is certain that at the point where diplomatic relations are established, Taiwan would be out. He said that he is worried that the papers would start writing about the Taiwanese Embassy in Japan being put up for sale.

Zhou: Yes, it was mentioned in the newspapers. The opposition of overseas Chinese would be nothing to worry about.

Takeiri: It is not the case that I do not understand how the overseas Chinese feel, but the government is ignoring this issue.

Zhou: It is best that they do not take up the issue.

What if Taiwan does not leave?

Takeiri: They appear to be making plans to leave the embassy and leave a trade company in place. Once the Prime Minister visits China to establish diplomatic relations, and once ambassadors are exchanged, diplomatic relations between Japan and Taiwan would be lost. Then there is no change to what Premier Zhou mentioned yesterday about entering into a peace and friendship treaty. There will be some small problems that remain, but for the large issues we cannot waste time.

Zhou: This is right. There is no need to touch on the Senkaku [Diaoyu] Islands issue. I gather that you did not have interest in the issue either. I also did not have interest in the matter, but historians have made it into an issue in relation to oil. Mr. Inoue Kiyoshi seems to be fired up about the issue as well. It is unnecessary to place too much emphasis on this issue.

Taken within the context of the reestablishment of diplomatic relations following the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence, then this is not an issue. The writings in the newspapers are only interruptions butting in.

Let’s finish our discussion of the Taiwan issue here and start our discussion on Japan-US relations.

I believe that because the US has not reestablished diplomatic relations with China, they want Japan to have relations with China.

Takeiri: I believe that is correct.

Zhou: The US faces certain circumstances and Japan also faces certain circumstances peculiar to itself.

The China-US Joint Declaration touches on this point. The US has contained China for the past twenty some years.

Japan has abandoned Taiwan. The occupier is the United States. They sent Chen Yi to confiscate the island. It is not Japan who is responsible for this, but it is the US. Regardless of this situation, the US has recognized one China. “Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait,” this was the creative wording of [Henry] Kissinger; it was something that I would not have thought of. Furthermore, the US has clearly indicated that it has no objections to the notion that Taiwan is a part of Chinese territory and that the Taiwan issue will be resolved by China.  

Next, it is written that China hopes for the peaceful liberation of Taiwan.

Like I said yesterday, I have also told [US President Richard] Nixon that I seek a peaceful solution.

US forces in Taiwan will leave once the Vietnam War is over. The scale of the Vietnam War is getting smaller. Once the Vietnam War is over they will withdraw completely, and they will leave Taiwan altogether.

This is a secret. I have only told you about this. This point was not made clear in the Joint Declaration. We established things so that they will withdraw as tension decreases in the Far East.

The China-US Joint Declaration is linked to Vietnam. We had to think about Vietnam instead of thinking about ourselves. There is bloodshed in Vietnam.

The Taiwan issue is divided, but there is no bloodshed. Taiwan is an internal Chinese issue. Solving the Taiwan issue ahead of Vietnam would be a shameful thing to do to our Vietnamese brothers. I discussed this with Nixon and Kissinger and said that I will be responsible for decreasing tensions.

However, because the US is warring in Vietnam, we will support Vietnam. Nixon recognized that our standpoint is just.

Nixon said that he would not say anything if the US was blamed. His only request was that we do not use too many adjectives when we call out the US by name.

The Soviets do not criticize the US. The Soviets are only thinking of themselves. The Middle East is right under their nose and so they have interest in the region, but they do not have much interest in Indochina.

We believe that sovereignty of the Indochina lies with the three Indochinese states [Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia].

I made it clear to Nixon that if the Paris Conference does not progress smoothly and if fighting continues, we will support Vietnam. The US demanded that neither party speaks on behalf of third-party countries.

I believe that this attitude is good. It is not right to speak on behalf of third-party countries.

Japan-China issues are separate issues from China-US issues. Japan is not a participant in the Indochina War. They are sympathetic and so are opposed to the war. If you gained from this situation, then that is monopolistic capitalism, such as shipbuilding, shipping, and transport of weapons.  

The Japanese Government is not directly and openly participating so they do not face restrictions.

With regard to Taiwan, as well, things are being returned to China. The realities of Japan-China relations and China-US relations are different.

While the US looked upon China as an enemy, the comings and goings of Japan-China relations were not severed during the past twenty years.

We have returned 30,000 Japanese, including war criminals. We have carried on friendly attitudes. Friendship, memoranda, and trade are paths that the former minister Matsumura [Kenzo] opened up. Japan knows this.

The US does not have this. They have even less of cultural exchanges. Ping-Pong diplomacy lapsed last year, but it has been reestablished. Ping-Pong is the reason that Nixon conducted secret diplomacy to reestablish relations. That ball is very important.

The Foreign Ministry wanted to only invite countries such as Canada. The US also wanted to join, but they believed that the circumstances were not right.

Chairman Mao [Zedong] said that circumstances not being ‘right’ was a weak reason. He phoned Wang Xiaoyu who was in Japan. And so the US table tennis team and newspaper reporters came to China.

The catalyst for US-Chinese relations was the table tennis team. They came in April, and Kissinger came in July. On the other hand, in terms of cultural and science exchange, Japan had been active in fields such as exchange of Go, shipping, fishing, and trade.

Japan is the largest trading partner of China. Last year it was at one billion dollars.

Japan is in the black. We are not protesting. We would like you to tell the Prime Minister—who was the former Minister of International Trade—and Nakasone [Yasuhiro], the Minister of International Trade and Industry. Trade will develop. The reestablishment of diplomatic relations is the only way that such relations with Japan can be developed.  It cannot be the same with the US The US has security ties with Taiwan. Japan has a peace treaty with Jiang Jieshi, but they do not have a security treaty.

Although the US recognizes that Taiwan is an internal political matter for China, there needs to be a process.

The establishment of relations between Japan and China is different. It is necessary to convince the US in this regard.

If the Prime Minister agrees after you report to him, and if he will seek agreement from the US, China will also talk with the US

We hope for this to happen after Japan-US discussions and not before. I have said that the reestablishment of Japan-China relations will not affect US-China relations. Kissinger said that he would be in favor of Japan-China friendship. Currently, Japan and China both want to reestablish diplomatic relations, and so the US should not oppose this. The Japan-US Security Treaty or the Sato-Nixon Joint Declaration [of 1969] did not come up during China-US talks.

Therefore, the US will be a roadblock to some extent, and so we must convince them otherwise.

Japan cannot speak like the Tokyo Shimbun either. The Soviet Union also combined the end to hostilities with reestablishing diplomatic relations. The Japan-Soviet precedent exists. The US was the first to pursue diplomacy over the heads of others. I believe we can convince the US, given that we are not creating a new precedent, but rather following the Soviet precedent of reestablishing diplomatic relations while also entering into a peace treaty.

Takeiri: The Foreign Minister did mention that he believes that the US will have some slight complaints. However, Foreign Minister Ohira said that his decision will be made before and not after meeting with Nixon. He also said that he will convince the US

Takeiri: Is it alright to convey to the two of them that the US will withdraw from Taiwan after the Vietnam War is over?

Zhou: I believe it is alright to tell the two of them. However, please tell them not to ask the US regarding this point. If the they hears this, they may believe that I trust you more than the US

I have not told Mr. Miki or Mr. Fujiyama. I have told you because the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister will need to know this in order to work on Japan-US relations.

Takeiri: I will formally convey Premier Zhou’s favorable words. I believe that their decision will not change even after meeting with Nixon. I believe they will deal with the information wisely. When a B-52 landed on Okinawa the other day, Chief Cabinet Secretary Nikaido lodged a firm protest with the US Ambassador [Robert Stephen Ingersoll]. This act is unprecedented for the Japanese Cabinet.

Zhou: We watched this carefully. This is a new factor for the Tanaka cabinet. This is unprecedented.

Takeiri: For the US, Japan and Okinawa are rear bases for the Vietnam War. We have repaired ships and tanks in Japanese bases. They probably believe that such a relationship that allows for the US to use our bases would become difficult as a result of Japan-China relations being reestablished. They also worry about its effect on South Korea and other Southeast Asian countries. However, Prime Minister Tanaka has already made up his mind.

Zhou: Yes, I believe that they are worried. The North and South [of Korea] are trying to reunify. This is a good thing. It is quick. If it is convenient, I think it would be good to convey this to the Prime Minister separately from the topic of Japan-China relations. I have heard that Prime Minister Tanaka is trying to conduct trade and cultural exchange. I believe Japan’s exchange with North Korea is a good thing. I believe it is a good thing to press for the reunification of North and South, and it is also a good thing to conduct exchanges. Please recommend this to him.

Takeiri: The US is worried about what would happen to South Korea after Japan-China relations are reestablished.

Zhou: The solution of this problem (Japan-US talks regarding the reestablishment of Japan-China relations) is beneficial not only for the people of Japan and China, but also for the people of the world.

During the China-US talks, the US was in favor of the Chinese standpoint on the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence. China and the US will solve problems peacefully in accordance to the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence.

Second, the Joint Declaration is written in five parts.

The normalization of China-US relations is beneficial not only for China and the US, but also for world peace. If this is the case, it is the same for China and Japan. I believe it would be good to convince the US using the China-US Joint Declaration.

The previous part was from the US draft. What if Japan tries to convince the US by saying that they are doing what the US has said before.

I have told you secrets. The commonality in the documents is the point made in the US draft. I changed the verb from present tense to future tense.

The future tense is unnecessary between Japan and China. We should only leave the common aspects and avoid the inclusion of contradictions. We should keep it shorter than long. Points of convergence should rise up. We should leave small differences behind and seek the bigger agreements. It is the same idea as the Bandung Conference.

Let us have our meal.