The Chancellor's [Helmut Kohl's] Meeting with Egyptian President Hosny Mubarak in Bonn on 30 March 1993, 15.30-17.20 hours

Head of Division 21                                                                                                                          Bonn, 31 March 1993

M e m o r a n d u m

Subject: The Chancellor's Meeting with Egyptian President Hosny Mubarak in Bonn on 30 March 1993, 15.30-17.20 hours[1]

After very cordial greetings, the Chancellor queries about the situation in Egypt.

The President replies that current press reports and television program were exaggerated. Basically, the problem that was so-called fundamentalists who had been fighting in Afghanistan were now unemployed. Now, Iran would take them over and use them as mercenaries to destabilize various countries.

Both the English as well as the German press would dramatize the scope of these issues. The American assertion that one could no longer be safe on Egypt’s streets was also truly exaggerated. Apparently, these things were only put in the foreground as the journalists were no longer used to a peaceful Egypt and some journalists had even confessed this. If there was no press and information freedom in his country, one would perhaps not even notice these issues. (Excursus: Brute oppression of fundamentalism in Syria). But Egypt was not an island which was isolated from the rest of the world.

The President decisively negates the Chancellor’s query whether Gaddafi was behind these assaults. Quite to the contrary, Gaddafi himself was also complaining about the fundamentalists as they were also working against his regime. He had already got some people arrested. By the way, Gaddafi had turned into a different kind of human being.

The Chancellor inserts that the President had perhaps laid his hand on Gaddafi.

The President laughingly replies not, he had rather grabbed him at the throat. Now, Gaddafi was obeying one hundred per cent to his advice. He was no longer insulting any heads of states, neither in the USA nor in Europe nor in the Arabian world. By the way, Gaddafi was very concerned about the situation in Egypt. He got cold feet himself.

Upon the Chancellor’s query, the President confirms that Syria was also not involved in the assaults. Iran was the main cause. Iran was eager to use Egypt’s current period of weakness in the aftermath of its economic transformation (especially social disadvantages for large sectors of the populace, the elimination of subventions and the loss of jobs) in order to destabilize Egypt and to establish an Islamic state not just in Egypt but in the entire region. However, Egypt had to accept these transitory difficulties as there was no other way for its economic recovery over the medium and long term: Excursus: High investments in infrastructure, agreements with the IMF and IFIs). He himself, the President says, keeps telling his nations in a very plastic way: "We are very sick, we will die if we do not use this medicine."

The Chancellor queries about the situation in Iraq. Was there also fundamentalism?

The President things that the situation was very bad. However, there was no fundamentalism in Iraq. Any kind of protesters would lose their lives. However, this did not imply that Iraq would not try to influence fundamentalism in other countries from outside. For instance, Egypt had extradited a man for the United States who had presumably been involved in the terrorist attack against the World Trade Center. He had admitted that two Iraqis had been involved as well, namely experts for explosives who had procured the enormous explosive device and had also launched it.

The President used this example as a way to emphasized that such attacks were also pursued bb people who were bought in Egypt, criminals, thugs and "unemployed people" from Afghanistan. They were ready to commit murder for 20-30 $. It could not be said that they had any kind of religious motives. During the last 15 months, there had been 76 deaths in Egypt, among them 3 tourists and 39 police officers. The police thought that the high number of victims was caused by the police’s initial efforts to resolve things in dialogue with the Islamists. Meanwhile, one was trying to catch the leading figures of these terrorist groups through targeted measures.

The Chancellor queries who played this game in Iran - Rafsandjani?

The President reiterates that the entire system was behind it. For instance, last year he had struck an agreement with Foreign Minister Velayati on the resumption of Egypt’s diplomatic relationship with Iran. When the fundamentalist leaders in Iran got to know this, they had instantly started to exercise pressure on Velayati who had then tried to scale back the entire thing to the expansion of cultural contacts, e plea which he had rejected.

Upon the Chancellor’s query, the President then elaborates on the situation in Saudi Arabia where he had recently had talks with King Fahd. The country had certain problems but a strict regime. There were also fundamentalist, but they were held on a short leash. Iraq and Iran caused problems, especially the latter, but the King was firmly in control of things. He was the leading force, the highest authority in the country. Egypt was closely working with Saudi Arabia, especially in the field of intelligence. Jordan had an enormous fundamentalist problem. Half of Jordan’s parliamentary deputies was fundamentalist. However, it was a small country with 2,5 to 3 million inhabitants. One knew each other and also knew that Israel would swallow up Jordan if they King got lost.

Fundamentalism also gained strength among the Palestinians, especially in the shape of Hezbollah and Hamas which had gained a great boost thought the deportation affair. The deportees were led and paid by Iran and had even raised the Iranian flag. They were against peace talks and demanded the return of entire Jerusalem.

The Chancellor asks the President for his assessment of future developments especially with regards to the Near East peace process.

The President says the main problem was to make the Palestinian delegation return to the negotiating table. They had physical fear as they were threatened. In fact, one would only be able to continue if the deportees were gone. Yesterday and the day before, he, the President, had given Arafat the pledge that he would use his imminent visit in the United States in order to demand at least slight improvement for the Palestinians. After his return from the United States, he and Prime Minister Rabin would discuss a solution for the problem of the deportees. Israel had already pledge to let 100 deportees go back. In addition, Mubarak wanted to achieve the release of an additional 35 of them. The rest of them ought to return in August and not at the end of the year. If this could be achieved, the Palestinians would return to the bargain table in Washington. In any case, he was full of hope and thought that one would be able to manage this problem and could thus resume the peace talks on 20 April.

The President emphasizes that he had discussed this solution with President Assad last week. Assad did more or less agree with it.

The Chancellor reports that he had told Foreign Minister Peres that the deportation affair was an absurd matter and had greatly harmed Israel.

Upon the Chancellor’s question whether Rabin would "take the leap", the President responds that the latter’s situation was not easy, he had opponents as well – the Chancellor inserts: fundamentalists – and could thus not discuss many things in public.

The Chancellor reports that Foreign Minister Peres had approached him with the idea to urbanize the desert as a joint project with the Egyptians. Has this concept already been discussed with Egypt? The Chancellor says that his reminds him of the conception that former Secretary of State George Shultz had raised, the idea of a Marshall Plan for the Near East. It was interesting that Peres raised this notion as this point in time even if he had not referred to the term Marshall Plan. His position remained consistent: Peace was a precondition for such projects.

The President says he thought the idea was excellent, but one indeed needed peace. Otherwise, this would remain a fantastic idea. Without peace, terrorists could come and destroy the entire project. If there was peace, all Arabians would certainly help. After all, there was enough money in the region.

The Chancellor underlines that he had told Foreign Minister Peres if the current Israeli government was again not taking the necessary steps forward, they were wasting time. What are they waiting for? Apparently, the Israelis still thought that time was working in their favor, but he thought that time was working against them.

The President affirms. Egypt had invested enormous work lobbying in order to set in motion the peace talks at all. He had had long discussions with Assad and Arafat. One had tried hard to reach a rapprochement between the positions with regards to substance. Hence, his disappointment was even larger as these deportations had caused a backlash for the entire process. By and large, he was still hopeful that one could achieve specific results later this year. Egypt was permanently working in this direction.

When the Chancellor expresses his skepticism, the President argues that one must not be pessimistic. Otherwise, one would lose hope and would do nothing.

By the way, both the time and global public opinion were working against Israel. He told the Israelis straight away: You were about to lose out. This was the last train toward peace. Previously, Israel had been dreaming of sitting at the negotiation table with the Palestinians, Syria and the Lebanese. Now, when this was possible, one just said 'no'. With regards to the specific results, Mubarak was full of hope. There were not gigantic problems with Syria. The Golan would be turned back but demilitarized. De fact, there were not any problems with Jordan at all. The main work had to be done with the Palestinians.  

Now, he has travelling to Washington via London, the President says in order to consult with Prime Minister Major and President Clinton. He was especially confident to reach consensus with the latter one, but the main key remained in the hands of Prime Minister Rabin (Excursus: Egyptian talks with American-Jewish organizations in order to make them apply pressure on Israel, even the USA had asked him to do this.)

The Chancellor asks whether there was fundamentalism in the military

The President negates this categorically. The military was strictly against it. The was a military man and knew everybody.  

Upon the Chancellor’s inquiry about the situation in the Maghreb, the President says that Algeria had the largest problems. He had warned former President Chadli Benjedid of fundamentalism as a danger. Now, his prognosis had come true. However, the fundamentalists would not win, the state would finally keep the upper hand after some time. There were also problems in Morocco, especially with regards to widespread rejection of the King who had a hard and strict regime. However, the King had taken the right reaction in response to fundamentalist activities steered by Sudan. He had tried to contain them. By the way, the same also applied to Tunisia.

The President then referred to the joint vocational training project that had been adopted during his last visit in October 1991. There was growing disappointment in Egypt against the backdrop of the initial enthusiasm that they project had caused, but nothing had happened so far. Now, one was determined to push it forward. Under the leadership of the Minister for Education, one had established a committee including the private sector. He was confident that this committed would do good work. Now, one needed German experts in order to organize work.

The Chancellor replied that, according to his knowledge, the expert had already been selected and would come soon. He thought that support in terms of vocational training was the best thing that one could do, it was a German specialty. (The Chancellor issued to signee to approach Federal Minister Spanger with the plea to bring this to a fruitful conclusion).

The President then refers to the project on the reform of elementary and middle school under the leadership of his wife. He also asks for German experts.

The Chancellor suggests that the President ought to write him a letter directly. He would make sure that this would be done instantly. The problem in many countries was that one would devote to much time and money in academic education. However, our prosperity did not primarily depend on this, but it rather relied on a good elementary education. Moreover, social stability was created with academics, but rather at the basis of society. (Excursus: Praise from Thatcher and Clinton for Germany’s vocational education system, good experiences by German enterprises in India). By the way, his advice for the President was to turn vocational training into his personal issue, the man on the street would then see that the President was taking care of his issues.

The President then brings up the plea for the opening of an additional German school in Egypt. There was enormous pressure to get accepted at German schools, and many good people had to be rejected. The USA had a university in Cairo. This was an additional reason for Germany to open up an additional school or technical school in Cairo.

The Chancellor pledges to take care of this issue.

The President queries about the results of the Chancellor’s visit in Washington and his assessment of developments in Russia.

The Chancellor report that President Clinton brought in a new administration including lots of young people who tackled issued directly, many of them with university degrees, less big business, more people of color at the White House. Clinton was speaking to the point, he had very few papers in front of him and he knew his issues precisely. He had done excellent preparatory work and was clearly the boss. He was a politician, very direct, very skilled, he could get on with people.  He wanted to abandon America’s Yankee image and appear less imperialistic and practice more partnership. Compared to the Bush era, there was no Baker type. The second most important man was Vice President Gore – and this did not just apply to environmental questions. In a nutshell: The President would get along well with Clinton. Currently, the President was primarily focused on domestic politics, on the budget and economic politics. He had already worked very well with Congress in this regard.

In terms of Europe, the Chancellor says, Clinton was less mistrustful. The previous generation of policymakers had called for European integration. But if the Europeans were united, this was never seen as a good thing.

With regards to Europe, the President ought to assume that Europe’s train was on track despite critical newspapers reports. One would be able to complete the Maastricht process at the end of the year. He, the Chancellor, thought that Denmark would ratify it. If this happened, Prime Minister Major would also finally prevail regardless of enormous difficulties if he knew the train would continue at the end of the year, if not at twelve, then at eleven. Great Britain would certainly be forced to return in four or five years.

The President inserts that Great Britain would lose a lot in the meantime.

The Chancellor affirms and refers to the forthcoming accessions which would be implemented until 1995. The European Community would then comprise 360 million citizens. From this perspective, it was also important to achieve peace in the Near East. His aim was to establish an association between the region and Europe. It was imperative to include Israel and Egypt. One ought to have a forward-looking concept. He did not want a fortress Europe.

The President reiterates that this was an essential point for Egypt.

The Chancellor continues and says he did not know how things would finally turn out in Russia. He thought that Yeltsin would win as he was the only one who had support among the people. He supported him totally and he and President Clinton were united in this. After all, if Yeltsin failed, everything would be much worse and one would have a relapse into the old times and had to rearm again. There would be big trouble between Russia and Ukraine.

During the next two weeks, he would try to adopt an assistance package. He thought the forthcoming Clinton-Yeltsin meeting in Vancouver was extremely important. (Excursus: Loose conventional and ABC weapons in the former Soviet Union.) In terms of the situation in Germany, he was quite content. Germany’s unity had been far more difficult than one had initially thought. One had economic problems but would be able to solve them.

In West Germany, in the old Federal Republic, one had reached a level of prosperity like never before. People had turned fat and comfortable and he had to tell them that one had to take new directions! But he was confident that one would also manage to achieve progress in this respect (Excursus: Japan visit, more investment in grey matter).

The Chancellor announces that the President would receive a non-paper in the child kidnapping case Debes (the paper is handed the President’s staffer).

The President inserts that the legal decision would be implemented as soon as it would be taken.

Finally, the Chancellor and the President consult on the line for the subsequent press conference.

(Dr. Kaestner)