Reception by N.S. Khrushchev of the Chairman of the Council of Ministers and the Minister of National Defense of the Republic of Senegal, Mamadou Dia

COPY

RECEPTION

BY N.S. KHRUSHCHEV OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS AND THE MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENSE OF THE REPUBLIC OF SENEGAL, MAMADOU DIA

5 June 1962

On the Soviet side, the reception was attended by USSR Foreign Minister, A.A. Gromyko, and A.A. Shvedov, Head of the first African Department of the USSR Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

On the Senegalese side – Vice-President of the National Assembly of the Republic of Senegal, Political Secretary of the Progressive Union of Senegal party, Ousmane N’gom, Minister of Public Administration, Labor and Social Affairs, Ibrahima Sarr, Secretary General of the Government, Jean Collin, Director of the Cabinet of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Habib Thiam, as well as other individuals accompanying Mamadou Dia.

After exchanging greetings, Mamadou Dia thanks N.S. Khrushchev for inviting him to visit the Soviet Union as it allowed him and his colleagues to directly interact with the government and people of the USSR. He believes that these connections will be beneficial for both Senegal and the USSR.

Mamadou Dia states that Senegal has just begun its journey towards independence and is working to overcome the challenges that come along with this path. Senegal aims to benefit from the experiences of other countries and people who have already followed the same path of independence. That is why the Senegalese government sends delegations to both socialist and non-socialist states to learn from and gain useful experience. According to Dia, the composition of the Senegalese delegation shows the great importance that the government attaches to its trip to the USSR and some other socialist countries. The purpose of the Senegalese delegation's trip to the Soviet Union was to establish useful contacts that would foster the development of relations between the two countries in various fields.

N.S. Khrushchev says that the Soviet people will happily share their experiences with the Senegalese. He says that the new society in the USSR is being built on the basis of Marxist-Leninist theory. However, the Soviet government maintains friendly relations not only with those countries that adhere to Marxist-Leninist theory. It is striving to restore good relations with all states. The Soviet government believes that all peoples and nations should live in peace and friendship, based on the principle of peaceful coexistence, and issues related to ideological and social order should be decided by the peoples themselves at their discretion. The USSR is tolerant of those countries that follow a different path of development than the path chosen by the Soviet peoples and never interferes in their internal affairs.

I could say a lot in defense of our system, N.S. Khrushchev continues, but the very practice of building a new life in our country speaks in favor of our system.

If we consider the history of socialist states, the correctness of communist views on the advantages of the socialist production system has been confirmed.

When comparing the level of development of Tsarist Russia and large capitalist countries of that time such as France, England and the USA with the current level of development of the USSR, on the one hand, and France, England, and the USA, on the other, it is clear, says N.S. Khrushchev, that in just 44 years, the Soviet state has made tremendous progress. It's important to note that the first 20 years of Soviet Russia were spent on war and rebuilding the economy that had been destroyed. Following World War II, the USSR did not rely on foreign loans or subsidies. In fact, the Soviet Union faced an economic blockade imposed by the capitalist world. America has not and is not trading with the USSR. And despite all this, remarkable progress was made in the development of the country.

            Before the revolution, Russia produced 4 million tons of steel. Last year, the USSR produced over 71 million tons, surpassing the combined production of England, France, and Germany.

The country's population was illiterate, and there was a shortage of intelligentsia. We had to establish a new proletarian intelligentsia in order to effectively compete against the other system. Bourgeois leaders argued that common people, workers and peasants, were not capable of governing the state. The experience of building the Soviet state has refuted any unfounded claims. Currently, the USSR produces three times more engineers annually than the USA. We have achieved a high level of development in science and technology. The Soviet man was the first person to fly into outer space. Is there a need to search for more compelling evidence of advanced technological and industrial development?

Some bourgeois figures try to claim that America is still wealthier. For now, that is true, but let us consider the age of our countries. What it has taken America 200 years to accomplish, the Soviet people have achieved in 20 years without any wars. A little more time will pass, and the USSR will produce more steel than the USA. Currently, the production capacity in America is higher than ours, but it is not fully utilized, and this is another evidence of the flaws in the capitalist system.

            N.S. Khrushchev says that Macmillan and De Gaulle, in conversations with him, had to admit that only the Soviet Union and the United States represent decisive powers in the world. De Gaulle even expressed France’s fear of the Soviet Union. Hence, England and France have admitted that presently only the USA and the USSR, or rather the USSR and the USA, represent real power in the world. US President Kennedy, continues N.S. Khrushchev, during a meeting with me in Vienna, also stated that the forces of the two countries are equal. Thereby, he acknowledged that in 44 years, the Soviet Union had risen to second place in the world. This is a big compliment.

How can we explain the enormous achievements of the Soviet Union? Communists reject racial theories and believe that all people have equal potential. The only question is whether the conditions for developing their abilities are present. Such conditions for the full development of the abilities of peoples were established by the socialist system. Using his own life as an example, N.S. Khrushchev explains how the revolution and socialist system allowed him, a former worker, to become the leader of a powerful state.

We attribute all our victories, says N.S. Khrushchev, to our socialist system and Marxist-Leninist teaching.

However, N.S. Khrushchev continues, we are not offended when you say that you are not a Marxist. In fact, we sympathize with you as a capable person who has not yet matured to understand Marxist theory. But I will patiently wait, N.S. Khrushchev concludes, and I will wait for the day when you too become a Marxist. This is not a favor, but a historical necessity. Anyone who does not understand this is like a blindfolded person searching for the right path. He will have to zigzag for a long time, bump into a wall, get bumps on his forehead, and turn back before he gets on the right path, although he will lose precious time.

I do not urge you to join our party, says N.S. Khrushchev, I know you are not prepared for this.

Mamadou Dia says he hopes to become a Marxist someday, but that will not happen anytime soon. He asks whether N.S. Khrushchev believes that after his visit to the USSR he, Mamadou Dia, may become a Marxist.

N.S. Khrushchev replies that he does not have any expectations. The only wish of the Soviet government is to get to know the leaders of Senegal better, demonstrate them everything that interests them, and start developing trade while collaborating in the fight for peace.

            Mamadou Dia, in turn, expresses his hope that cooperative relations will be established between the USSR and Senegal, despite the fact that Senegal does not declare its commitment to Marxism-Leninism and is trying to pursue its own path, even if it implies “getting bumps on its forehead.” He believes that trade relations and relations in other areas should be established between the USSR and Senegal. The Soviet goodwill mission, continues M. Dia, which recently visited Dakar, discussed concluding a trade agreement and an agreement on technical cooperation with the Senegalese government. Mamadou Dia is ready to discuss the documents prepared by Senegal on these issues with the Soviet side.

            N.S. Khrushchev says that the Soviet Union takes a realistic position, establishing diplomatic, business and other ties with all countries, irrespective of their social and political systems. The USSR also maintains friendly relations with capitalist countries, including monarchies.

N.S. Khrushchev asks Mamadou Dia to express his wishes on developing trade between the USSR and Senegal. The Soviet Union, he says, aims to develop trade and provide assistance to underdeveloped countries in every possible way.

Mamadou Dia proposes to discuss and, if necessary, finalize the Senegalese draft of the general agreement on trade principles and sign this agreement.

N.S. Khrushchev agrees with this opinion. He characterizes the draft agreement as constructive and proposes to take it as a basis. Experts in the field of foreign trade, N.S. Khrushchev says, will discuss the issue of practical finalization of this agreement.

Mamadou Dia expresses doubt that experts from both sides will have enough time to develop a specific agreement during the delegation’s stay in the USSR, and in light of this, he suggests signing the general agreement on trade principles already prepared by the Senegalese.

He says that a draft agreement on technical cooperation has also been prepared. Senegal is interested in concluding this agreement, given the high level of scientific and technological development in the USSR.

Regarding issues of cultural cooperation, Senegal cannot yet showcase anything other than its folklore in the USSR, but it is interested in developing cultural ties with the Soviet Union.

In response to N.S. Khrushchev’s proposal to instruct Soviet experts to prepare a draft agreement on cultural cooperation, Mamadou Dia says that Senegal wants to have its own original position and has already prepared a draft of such an agreement.

N.S. Khrushchev expresses sincere wishes for success in developing Senegal’s economy and culture. He says that Soviet people will show warm hospitality towards the Senegalese delegation everywhere.

Mamadou Dia says that Russian hospitality is renowned worldwide and that he would like to express his compliments, although, like De Gaulle, he is not fond of giving compliments.

N.S. Khrushchev speaks of his respect for De Gaulle. He declares that De Gaulle is an original and gifted person, even though they are on opposite sides of the pole.

Mamadou Dia says that it is possible to respect each other without necessarily sharing the beliefs of the conversation partner.

N.S. Khrushchev compares De Gaulle and Guy Mollet as statesmen. De Gaulle is a more reasonable politician, but as for Guy Mollet, he pursued a reckless policy by starting aggression in Egypt. When Guy Mollet was in the USSR and met with Khrushchev, he was told that in seven years the French colonizers would be thrown out of Algeria. It was hard for De Gaulle, but – and this is a credit to him – he found the strength to go against the current and agree to resolve the Algerian issue. Apparently, he will see this decision through. However, I have no intention of attributing to De Gaulle the quality of “granting freedom” to colonial peoples, says Khrushchev. In Russia, Tsar Alexander II was also called a “liberator,” but he emancipated peasants from serfdom only because they were rising in revolt, and it was necessary to free them “from above” before they could free themselves “from below”. The tsar gave the peasants freedom, but at the same time he robbed them by allowing the landowners to keep the land.

Colonizers typically follow a similar pattern: they only leave when they feel that, if they do not leave themselves, the people will throw them out in 5 minutes. This is precisely how France "liberated" its colonies: it waged a colonial war in Vietnam for seven years and in Algeria for seven years. If there were no wars in the rest of the former French colonies, it is largely due to De Gaulle and his understanding of the situation.

Mamadou Dia states that he was going to object, but fully agrees with N.S. Khrushchev's final words regarding De Gaulle's pragmatic position.

N.S. Khrushchev says that Lamine-Guèye from Senegal, who was part of the Socialist Party of France delegation, vigorously defended France's colonial policy.

Mamadou Dia notes that Lamine-Guèye has since changed and broken ties with the French socialists.

N.S. Khrushchev expresses doubt about this and says that “only the grave will straighten out the hunchback.” Lamine-Guèye would like to use the old methods, but he simply cannot do it.

N.S. Khrushchev further notes that now the colonialists can no longer act with impunity. Guy Mollet, for example, began aggression against Egypt, but a stern warning from the Soviet government thwarted the plans of the aggressors.

Mamadou Dia states that Senegal was the only African country to protest against the French government's aggression in Egypt.

N.S. Khrushchev notes that such a statement brings honor to Senegal.

Mamadou Dia thanks N.S. Khrushchev for the frank and useful conversation. 

N.S. Khrushchev asks not to take offense at the pointed framing of some questions, requests a critical examination of everything during the stay in the USSR, and encourages learning from valuable experiences.

(The conversation continued over lunch.)

Mamadou Dia showed great interest in A.N. Kosygin’s proposal for Soviet fishing vessels operating off the coast of Senegal to sell part of their catch to Senegal since fish canning factories in Dakar do not seem to be operating at full capacity.

Then the conversation touched upon some international problems.

N.S. Khrushchev and Mamadou Dia agreed that general disarmament is currently a primary task affecting the interests of all peoples and countries. N.S. Khrushchev says that given the current level of military technology development, a nuclear war could erupt due to an unfortunate accident. After all, a simple push of a button is enough to unleash war. However, in the Soviet Union, there is everything needed to crush the aggressor. The USSR has missiles capable of carrying 50-100 megaton bombs. One such bomb is sufficient to destroy an entire country.

Mamadou Dia says he doesn't believe in the possibility of war breaking out and suggests that major powers should find ways to achieve disarmament.

 N.S. Khrushchev says that the Soviet Union is compelled to build up its armaments because our country is surrounded by a ring of American bases and bases of countries belonging to aggressive military blocs. Therefore, Soviet missiles are aimed at all these bases to have the ability to retaliate in case of aggression against the USSR. There is a French military base in Dakar, and Soviet missiles are pointed at it as well.

Mamadou Dia asserts that the base is very small and will not play any role in a war. 

N.S. Khrushchev states that nevertheless, this base is part of the NATO base system and will be destroyed in case of war. 

Mamadou Dia objects, saying that this base is not part of the NATO base system. The French are not even allowed to conduct maneuvers without the consent of the Senegalese government. Gradually, the base will be evacuated and handed over to Senegal in accordance with the Franco-Senegalese agreements. 

N.S. Khrushchev notes that the Soviet government is unaware of these agreements and that the base in Dakar is not part of the NATO base system.

Mamadou Dia says that this base is needed for Senegal not for aggression but to establish a national army with the assistance of French military specialists. The base in Dakar is not part of the NATO base system. Moreover, De Gaulle's policy is to move away from NATO. When we, along with our brothers from Mali, were negotiating with France before our disagreement, Dia says, De Gaulle assured us with complete certainty that there was no question of our countries joining the NATO. 

N.S. Khrushchev suggests publicly declaring that the base in Dakar is not part of the NATO. 

Mamadou Dia says it is easy to do. He further notes that bases in Africa are too small to have any significance in a world war. For example, the airbase in Kati was practically only used for transportation and supply purposes. It is equipped with outdated aircraft. It is a different story with NATO bases, which have an aggressive nature. For instance, the American submarine base in Scotland is clearly an aggressive base. 

The disarmament issue is the most challenging to solve, says Mamadou Dia. However, morally, those who want to start a war must be compelled. In Senegal, a committee of peace supporters has been created, which will send its delegation to Moscow. It is necessary for the global peace movement to gain even greater momentum.

N.S. Khrushchev notes that African countries are called upon to play an even greater role in international affairs. African nations have already supported the project to create a nuclear-free zone in Africa and the U.N. General Assembly resolution on the elimination of the colonial system. However, it is not only about making good decisions but also striving to implement them. After all, in Angola and other colonized countries, the blood of patriots is still being shed. The poverty of African peoples is a result of colonial slavery.

Mamadou Dia expresses the view that colonialism is living its last days. Even the most steadfast colonizers, such as the Portuguese, are beginning to realize this. Within Portugal itself, a movement against Salazar's regime is developing. Salazar will be overthrown as soon as he loses his colonies.

In concluding the conversation, N.S. Khrushchev outlined the Soviet government's position on the German issue. We will sign a peace treaty, thereby eliminating the allied occupation rights in West Berlin, he says. The times when colonialism could rule nations have passed; the times when imperialism could dictate its terms have passed. We defend our rights in Berlin, declares N.S. Khrushchev, the rights of the socialist country – the GDR. We are negotiating with Western powers, but the delay in negotiations cannot last indefinitely.

Written down by A. Glukhov

[Handwritten: “Correct”]

/Signature/