Record of Conversation between Members of the Indonesian Delegation and N.S. Khrushchev

[Handwritten: “Disseminated”]

Top Secret. Copy No.2

[Stamp 042. 4 January 1961]

TRANSCRIPT OF THE CONVERSATION

between members of the Indonesian government delegation and Cde. N.S. Khrushchev

3 January 1961*

Upon exchanging greetings, Nasution mentions being in Europe for the first time, where he is able to witness snow and winter for the first time in his life.

N.S. Khrushchev responds that it is currently an "Indonesian" winter in Moscow, and the Russian people are dissatisfied with this weather. They would prefer stronger frost outside.

Nasution says that in the future he would be willing to accept Marshal Malinovsky's invitation and visit the Soviet Union during the summer. The current delegation's visit has been prompted by the emergency circumstances that have arisen in Indonesia's West Irian region, and therefore the visit will be of short duration.

[This portion of the text is crossed out: “N.S. Khrushchev jokes that the delegation would apparently stay in the Soviet Union for no more than a month. Nasution replies that, unfortunately, the delegation’s stay is limited to a few days.”]

Subandrio notes that General Nasution must return home as soon as possible, otherwise war may break out suddenly.

N.S. Khrushchev says that now we should not anticipate an open war against Indonesia [Crossed out: “for example”] from the Dutch. The Dutch are cowardly and may initiate a war only if they feel that they have a significant military advantage over their enemy. Currently, the Dutch are fearful of engaging in a war.

Nasution responds that the Dutch are unlikely to initiate a direct war, but they may attempt to incite unrest within the country.

N.S. Khrushchev agrees with this and says that the Dutch colonialists will now attempt to exploit the internal contradictions of Indonesia. This is the current tactics of the colonialists. They have already found Mobutu in Congo. Now they want to find a similar proxy in Indonesia. In Laos, they [Crossed out: “managed to overthrow”] [handwritten: “they opposed”] the government of Souvanna Phouma, which was pursuing an independent democratic policy. However, despite the efforts of the colonialists, the liberation movement in Asian and African countries is achieving great victories.

Nasution says that he wants to deliver a personal message to Khrushchev from President Sukarno and proceeds to state the content of the message.

As per Nasution, President Sukarno dispatched a government delegation to the Soviet Union to deal with the escalating West Irian problem. With the Dutch colonialists' activities intensifying in West Irian, the President deemed it necessary to strengthen Indonesia's position and prepare for any surprises. Given the growing from year to year friendship between Indonesia and the Soviet Union and, referring to the previously signed agreements on Indonesia's purchase of weapons from the Soviet Union, the President has requested to change some payment conditions for the [Crossed out: “stipulated”] weapons supply as per these agreements. Nasution says that he will outline the various requirements of the Indonesian armed forces and convey the President's request to ease the conditions for the supply of weapons and other military equipment by the Soviet government.

1. Naval forces.

Due to the increased Dutch activities in the West Irian area, the Indonesian government is requesting that the repayment of a loan obtained for the supply of materials,as per the agreement signed by the Chief of Staff of the Navy Martadinata, be delayed in accordance with a message [Handwritten: “a letter”] from the First Minister Djuanda [Crossed out: “to Khrushchev”].

Next, while staying in the Soviet Union, Martadinata had a discussion regarding the supply of small coastal transport vessels to Indonesia for the purpose of transporting troops. However, at that time, the Soviet government was unable to fulfill Indonesia's request. Due to the increasing activities of the colonialists, Nasution was authorized to repeat the request.

2. Air Forces.

The Indonesian delegation is requesting, firstly, to speed up the delivery of goods for which a corresponding agreement already exists and, secondly, to supply new equipment. Specifically, the delegation is requesting to speed up the supply of bombers, as well as new modern fighters and some other types of military equipment. The Indonesian side is also requesting for Indonesia the supply of missiles and assistance in constructing several airfields in the eastern part of Indonesia that borders West Irian. 

3. Ground forces.

It would be desirable for the Indonesian army to receive weaponry and equipment for one division, along with air defense systems and engineering equipment.

Nasution notes that in his message, President Sukarno requested military equipment and other supplies with a six-year deferment of loan repayments.

N.S. Khrushchev makes a joke by referring to President Sukarno as a "robber.”

Nasution tells him in the same tone that he will deliver these words to President Sukarno.

Subandrio adds that the president is aware of Khrushchev's opinion of him being a “robber”, since he heard these words from Khrushchev himself in New York.

Nasution says that he essentially covered the entirety of Sukarno's message. The delegation will discuss Indonesian needs and requests in greater detail during specific negotiations.

Subandrio adds that despite the President being referred to as a "robber", he still requested to express his remorse for the inconvenience that he frequently causes to the Soviet government and also for unexpectedly sending a delegation to the Soviet Union right after the New Year to request weapons. President Sukarno feels ashamed at times for frequently seeking help from the USSR, but he remains hopeful that it will aid Indonesia in overcoming its challenges to defend its independence.

General Nasution arrived in the USSR with the firm belief that the Soviet Union and Indonesia shared common goals in the fight against colonialism and imperialism, as well as in building a new society. Moreover, General Nasution and Air Marshal Suryadarma's delegation was tasked with a special order from the Indonesian people and President Sukarno to further solidify the existing friendship ties between Indonesia and the Soviet Union.

Subandrio expresses his regret that the delegation can only stay in the Soviet Union for a few days and explains that this is due to the presence of a state of emergency in Indonesia. He also mentions the general tension that has developed in Asia and Africa – especially in relation to the events in Laos, Algeria, and the Congo – and which requires the prompt return of the delegation to their homeland. President Sukarno also regrets that the delegation cannot spend more time in the USSR and will not be able to appreciate the enormous successes of the Soviet people in raising prosperity and culture, as well as their struggle for peace led by Prime Minister Khrushchev.

Next, Subandrio states that the Dutch would not openly confront Indonesia unless they believe that Indonesia is weak. Indonesia is anxious not only about the actions of the Dutch within West Irian but also about the possibility of other imperialists and colonialists using West Irian as a battleground against Indonesia.

N.S. Khrushchev acknowledges that he understands President Sukarno's anxiety completely. Just like the Indonesians' desire to liberate West Irian as soon as possible, the Dutch and American imperialists wish to subjugate Indonesia. It is no secret that Holland and America jointly exploit the subsoil of West Irian. So it appears that there is a division of labor taking place: the Dutch seem to be openly pursuing their colonialist policy, while the Americans seem to be playing a double game [Handwritten: “–“] on one hand, they give the impression of supporting Indonesia, but on the other hand, they are assisting Holland. After all, if the United States had not supported Holland's stance on the West Irian issue, it [Crossed out: “would undoubtedly have strengthened the impact on Holland”] and forced it to give up its claims. However, the United States not only didn't oppose Holland but also allowed Holland to transfer its military units, which are part of the NATO, from Europe to West Irian.

If there were no Soviet Union, the United States would have acted even more openly, but since Indonesia receives assistance from the Soviet Union, the United States is taking the position of a patron of Indonesia in order to try to weaken its friendship with the Soviet Union somehow. This policy aims to persuade Indonesia to reduce the amount of assistance it receives from the USSR so that Holland, in turn, will be stronger than Indonesia. It cannot be considered accidental that, when discussing a resolution on the colonial issue at the U.N., America voted along with England, France, Belgium, Holland and other colonial powers.

As for the Soviet Union, it has always been vocal in its opposition to the policies of colonialists and has consistently provided and will continue to provide assistance to nations that are fighting for their freedom and independence. The colonialists, of course, know this and know it well. They still can't do anything. The colonialists hate us, and we hate the colonialists.

R.Ya. Malinovsky [Handwritten: “jokingly”] notes that there is complete agreement between the Soviet Union and the colonialists on this issue.

N.S. Khrushchev [Crossed out: “says that all that remains is to wish”] [Handwritten: “expresses his wish that the Indonesian”] delegation visiting the Soviet Union will not [sic.] be able to stay for a longer period of time, tour the country, observe the development of industry and agriculture, visit Central Asia and experience the lives of the Muslim people in the Soviet Union, witness the economic development, the rising of living standards, and the culture. The Soviet Union is proud of the achievements of Muslim republics in the USSR. Khrushchev made a joke that if General Nasution is unable to make a trip now, then he must promise that he will come to visit again in the summer, along with his wife and children. Until he makes such a promise, he will not be allowed to leave the Soviet Union.

Subandrio adds that, by the way, Mrs. Nasution has a great love for ballet.

N.S. Khrushchev replies that in this case she should definitely come.

Nasution says that he intends to take advantage of the kind invitation of Marshal Malinovsky this summer and visit the areas Khrushchev mentioned.

N.S. Khrushchev notes that General Nasution and his colleagues will be shown everything they want to see in the Soviet Union as we have no secrets from our Indonesian friends.

Subandrio, Khrushchev says, may have already seen much of the Soviet Union during his ambassadorial stay, but now there is much that is new to him in the Soviet Union.

Next, Khrushchev responds to the requests of the Indonesian government conveyed by Nasution. At the same time, he says that he cannot provide a detailed response since Marshal Malinovsky and other Soviet specialists need to analyze them thoroughly, see what kind of “robbery” Indonesia intends to commit. After this it will be possible to give a specific answer. In any case, we will try to satisfy the “robbers”, Khrushchev continues, but of course, on the condition that you leave us at least something, or else the Dutch may start beating us too, god forbid.

[Crossed out: “It can already be said”], the Soviet government will [Crossed out: “agrees”] [Handwritten: “be able”] to supply Tu-16 bombers to Indonesia. At the same time, Khrushchev suggests, along with conventional bombers, to take aircraft of this type armed with missiles. He says that this is a very good weapon for fighting enemy ships. When using these missiles, the aircraft does not need to come close to the ships: the missiles will find the target themselves.

Nasution notes that it is clear from Khrushchev’s statement that some of the requests made by the Indonesian delegation are being fulfilled.

R.Ya. Malinovsky jokingly remarks that the “robbery” has already started.

Nasution chuckles in agreement with this.

N.S. Khrushchev advises Nasution to discuss the issue with Marshal Malinovsky. However, what will he be left to do if he transfers all his weapons to Indonesia? Should he ask to resign then?

R.Ya. Malinovsky. We have to disarm anyway.

N.S. Khrushchev replies that first the colonialists need to be thoroughly shaken up. The colonizers must leave the colonies. Therefore, the Soviet government made a decisive statement that the colonialists must leave, and if they do not agree, then they must be expelled from the colonies. The Soviet Union is ready to provide assistance to countries fighting against the colonialists in this regard.

Nasution expresses his gratitude for the assistance provided by the Soviet Union. 

N.S. Khrushchev says that the policy of the Soviet Union is straightforward: we do not need colonies, and indeed we do not need anything in other countries. While devising an economic development plan, the Soviet Union relies solely on its internal capabilities, which are steadily growing from year to year. For example, last year the increase in steel production in the Soviet Union amounted to 5 million tons. This year the increase will be 6 million tons; in 1960, 65 million tons of steel were produced in the Soviet Union. In 1961, it is planned to smelt 71 million tons, and by 1965, steel production will reach 91 million tons or more. These are quite good indicators.

Nasution jokingly notes that if the Soviet Union continues to develop at this pace, then Indonesia will be a permanent “robber” of the Soviet Union.

N.S. Khrushchev replies that Indonesia is a wealthy country, and the Soviet Union will help it develop its economy, as the country possesses all the necessary natural resources. That is why the colonialists are attracted to Indonesia like bees to honey. Indonesia, with its 90 million population, can undoubtedly become a powerful nation if it develops its economy. The Soviet Union wishes Indonesia well and all-round development of national forces. As for the question of the socio-political structure, it is solely an internal matter of Indonesia. We, N.S. Khrushchev emphasizes, like our system; you are free to choose the system that, in your opinion, suits you best. This should not prevent us from living in peace and friendship with each other.

Subandrio has pointed out that the successful economic collaboration between the Soviet Union and Indonesia can be observed through the construction of a stadium in Jakarta. When N.S. Khrushchev visited the construction site, the work had just begun, but now it is in full swing. It is regrettable that we have to spend a significant amount of time and resources purchasing weapons instead of receiving assistance from the Soviet Union in developing our national economy.

N.S. Khrushchev says that it is regrettable, but we have to do this now, otherwise the colonialists will try to return to Indonesia. This time they will try to act not directly, but through some of their proxies within the country, people similar to Mobutu.

Nasution notes that there are still such people in Indonesia.

N.S. Khrushchev says that with time, the Congolese would drive Mobutu out, and his destiny is to hang on a rope.

Nasution, noting that the delegation must negotiate with the Soviet delegation, says goodbye to N.S. Khrushchev.

N.S. Khrushchev, for his part, warmly bids farewell to the members of the delegation and invites [Crossed out: “all of them to come in the summer”] [Handwritten: “Nasution, Subandrio, Sudjarwo, Suryadarma, and Aburakhmat [Handwritten: “to visit”] the Soviet Union [Handwritten: “again in the summer”].

Present at the conversation from the Soviet side were: R.Ya. Malinovsky, V.V. Kuznetsov, N.P. Firyubin, A.I. Antonov, G.G. Sidorovich, and V.I. Likhachev.

Present at the conversation from the Indonesian side were: Minister of Foreign Affairs, Subandrio; Minister and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Suryadarma; Head of the European Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Sudjarwo; Ambassador of Indonesia to the USSR, A. Malik; Deputy Chief of Staff of the Air Force, Aburakhmat; and Military and Naval Attaché of Indonesia in the USSR, S. Ongko.

The conversation was recorded by: V.M. Sukhodrev, Yu.A. Sholmov

Printed 3 copies zf/vn/am/ach

Mb-059/gs/4/1/61.