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July 20, 1957

Record of a Conversation between N. S. Khrushchev and Ali Sastroamidjojo

This document was made possible with support from Blavatnik Family Foundation

RECORD OF A CONVERSATION BETWEEN N. S. KHRUSHCHEV AND ALI SASTROAMIDJOJO

20 July 1957

 

After an exchange of greetings N. S. Khrushchev asked the guest’s impressions of [his] time in Moscow. Ali Sastroamidjojo replied he has already managed to familiarize himself with the city and its inhabitants, and also with some enterprises. The All-Union Agricultural and Industrial Exhibits made the greatest impression on him.  A. Sastroamidjojo said further that he was quite glad to have the opportunity to meet with government leaders of the Soviet Union. On the way to the USSR he read reports of the Western press about recent events in the Soviet Union. In connection with the fact that these reports were undoubtedly far from complete Sastroamidjojo asked N. S. Khrushchev, if possible, to give some explanations regarding the changes which have occurred in the composition of the Soviet government, and also how these changes might influence the international situation.

N. S. Khrushchev said that he can talk about how these changes occurred and how they evaluate them in the Soviet Union. As is well known, Molotov and Kaganovich are old figures of the Communist movement. Malenkov is younger than them, both in terms of age and in the sense of participation in public political life. Malenkov is also the weakest link among these figures. In his social origin he is not a worker, and he joined the Party after the Revolution, in 1920. Being a quite capable person he graduated an academic secondary school at one time, was in political work in the army, entered a higher educational institution, and upon graduation was accepted as an instructor in the Party CC. Working in the CC staff and the CC, he climbed the entire official ladder from instructor to deputy chief of a department; he mainly specialized in drafting various documents, resolutions, and memos. Secretary of a primary Party organization is considered the first elected position in the Party. Malenkov never occupied such a post. He also was not a Secretary of a rayon committee or in other responsible positions where the character of a person is forged, and a feeling of responsibility and a skill of managing people are instilled. A big difference exists between political leaders of the bourgeoisie and the socialist countries. A bourgeois leader deals with pure politics. In a socialist country a political figure should not only be aware of questions of domestic and foreign policy, but also know the structure of the economy, look into questions of industry, finances, banking matters, etc. In capitalist countries private businessmen deal with these matters, but in our country this falls to political and Party leaders. Therefore, they need to know their business well and look into all practical questions in order to occupy appropriate posts and rise in the eyes of the people. Malenkov did not come in touch with practical life and never was in charge of any serious matter associated with great responsibility. He could hold the post of Chairman of the USSR Council of Ministers only after the death of I. V. Stalin, and only thanks to the intrigues of Beria. I. V. Stalin knew Malenkov well and undoubtedly would never have allowed him to occupy such a post. Beria was close to Malenkov and, being unable to aspire to the post of Chairman of the USSR Council of Ministers for ethnic reasons, proposed Malenkov’s candidacy, counting on Malenkov not being able to cope with this work in view of his insufficient experience and then he, Beria, would easily seize power. The case of Beria was the most dangerous test for our Party and state. Beria was not a Communist, he was a careerist and adventurer, a bloody and unprincipled person who reached high posts through artful intrigues.

As concerns V. M. Molotov, he was an honest Communist. However, he suffers from conservatism and is a prisoner of old idea. I can cite as an example his position on the question of relations with Japan. He not only opposed signing the San Francisco Treaty with Japan, but also normalization of relations with Japan at a later time, although preserving the state of war between Japan and the Soviet Union would only be to the advantage of the United States of America. After the death of I. V. Stalin Molotov did not understand the measures which the Party began to pursue to improve the domestic and international position of the Soviet government, and raised objections on a number of questions. Kaganovich, also an old Party official, was very similar to V. M. Molotov with respect to conservatism. As concerns Shepilov, he occupied important government posts and mainly worked in the area of ideology. Being a quite capable person he however yielded to the influence of the incorrect views of Malenkov, Molotov, and Kaganovich.

The statements of these leaders against the Party line which was being pursued in accordance with the decisions of the 20th CPSU Congress finally forced the Party to take stern measures against them, expelling them from the CC.

Thus, the Party gained an opportunity to decide questions more freely in accordance with the interests of the Party and the people in the spirit of the decisions of the 20th CPSU Congress. The Party is united at the present time. A discussion of the decisions of the July CPSU CC plenum has been held, as a result of which the decisions of the plenum were supported by all organizations. Kaganovich, Malenkov, and Shepilov have already received new assignments. Work is also being sought for Molotov.

Ali Sastroamidjojo asked N. S. Khrushchev’s opinion about whether Molotov, Malenkov, Kaganovich, and Shepilov had supporters in the Party.

N. S. Khrushchev replied that they have no supporters in the Party, but there are people who simply sympathize with them in a humane way as old Party officials, without at the same time sharing their views.

Ali Sastroamidjojo said that in the opinion of the Western press the removal of Molotov, Malenkov, Kaganovich, and Shepilov might lead to a worsening of relations between the Western powers and the Soviet Union.

N. S. Khrushchev pointed out that these leaders have not recently had decisive influence on the policy of the USSR, which has developed in accordance with the decisions of the 20th CPSU Congress and which the Soviet government intends to continue. The Soviet Union has always strived to improve relations with the Western powers and if the leaders of the West regard the Soviet Union with greater trust in connection with recent events in the USSR then it should only be welcomed. However, if the Western powers are expecting any change in the policy of the USSR disappointment awaits them.

Ali Sastroamidjojo expressed gratitude for the explanations given by N. S. Khrushchev and said that during [his] time in the Soviet Union he has become convinced of what sympathy the Soviet leaders and people have for Indonesia. Sastroamidjojo also spoke favorably of the peaceful policy of the Soviet government.

A. A. Maramis, the Indonesian Ambassador in the USSR, asked whether the removal of Molotov from the government would not influence the development of Soviet-Yugoslav relations in the sense that Yugoslavia will be 100% engaged in the socialist camp.

N. S. Khrushchev replied that this will facilitate a further improvement of relations between the USSR and Yugoslavia in some measure. At one time Molotov opposed normalization of these relations and his position was condemned. However, it is necessary to bear in mind that there are ideological differences between the USSR and SFRY, regardless of the point of view of V. N. Molotov. N. S. Khrushchev expressed confidence that these differences will be gradually overcome.

Ali Sastroamidjojo again expressed gratitude for the conversation and bid a warm goodbye to N. S. Khrushchev.

Present during the conversation was B. M. Volkov, Chief of the Southeast Asian Department of the USSR MFA. The conversation was interpreted and recorded by V. N. Pechkurov, an attaché of the USSR MFA’s Southeast Asian Department.

 

2-sk/VP [Pechkurov’s signature]

26 July 1957

Khrushchev explains the recent changes in the Soviet government to PM Sastroamidjojo, namely the expulsion of Molotov, Kaganovich, Malenkov, and Shepilov from their positions. This occurred as punishment for their 1957 coup attempt against Khrushchev, but he cites ideological difference in this conversation.


Document Information

Source

RGANI, f. 52, op. 1, d. 565, ll. 39-43. Contributed by Sergey Radchenko and translated by Gary Goldberg.

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2019-07-22

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208965

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Blavatnik Family Foundation