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Digital Archive International History Declassified

July 28, 1972

RECORD OF THE SECOND MEETING BETWEEN TAKEIRI YOSHIKATSU AND ZHOU ENLAI

This document was made possible with support from the MacArthur Foundation

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    During a conversation with Takeiri, Zhou Enlai questioned the news from Tokyo Shimbun which emphasized that the state of war between Japan and China had ended. In addition, he mentioned the international status of Taiwan and the Vietnam War.
    "Record of the Second Meeting between Takeiri Yoshikatsu and Zhou Enlai," July 28, 1972, History and Public Policy Program Digital Archive, 2001-298, Act on Access to Information Held by Administrative Organs. Also available at the Diplomatic Archives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan. Obtained by Yutaka Kanda and translated by Ryo C. Kato. http://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/118834
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[1972]

July 28th 19:00~20:45

Takeiri [Yoshikatsu]-Zhou [Enlai] Dialogue (Second Round)

Zhou: I checked the news from yesterday, and it was not the Liberal Democratic Party Japan-China Society, but an article in the Tokyo Shimbun. The article in the Tokyo Shimbun is different. The theme is different, too.

It places emphasis on ending the state of war if Prime Minister Tanaka [Kakuei] is to visit China.

If Prime Minister Tanaka visits China, our governments will make the following joint declaration. (1) The state of war between Japan and China has ended. (2) Relations based on peace, friendship, and neighborly conduct will be restored. And finally…(reads out the article from the Tokyo Shimbun)

If Prime Minister Tanaka will not recognize China, as the reporting in the Tokyo Shimbun suggests, then why is he coming to China? You have said that the creation of a draft cannot be done in Tokyo, but I believe that doing so in Tokyo would prolong things.

Takeiri: Japanese news often writes articles that are not pertinent. Based on the conversation I had with Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira [Masayoshi], this article does not seem to reflect the two’s thoughts.  

Furthermore, our thoughts have not been leaked anywhere. The only people, other than the two who may know of this, is Chief Cabinet Secretary Nikaido [Susumu]. Presumably, Miki [Takeo] does not know of this. Since the incident, the regulations should be under good control in the Foreign Ministry.

Zhou: It would be ridiculous for Prime Minister Tanaka to come to China just to end the state of war. Could this be Kishi [Nobusuke] and Kaya’s [Okinori] doing?

The news these days is making comparisons to the Soviets, but this is bending the truth of history. (Reads an article published in the Yomiuri Shimbun on the 27th.)

Takeiri: The Yomiuri Shimbun is better. Prime Minister Tanaka and Foreign Minister Ohira’s ideas that I mentioned will not change.

Zhou: I do not think at all that they will. The fact that they trusted you indicates their determination.

Takeiri: I believe so, as well.

Zhou: If we were to follow an arrangement such as the one laid out in the Tokyo Shimbun, then we would be wasting time.

Yesterday, you mentioned that light is usually followed by shadows, but it would be a waste of time and we do not know what kind of roadblocks lay ahead. Leaving this recent article aside for a moment, is there a segment of people that are worried about Jiang Jieshi [Chiang Kai-shek]?

Takeiri: I exchanged opinions with Foreign Minister Ohira. The Foreign Minister’s decision is to have the Prime Minister visit China. It is certain that at the point where diplomatic relations are established, Taiwan would be out. He said that he is worried that the papers would start writing about the Taiwanese Embassy in Japan being put up for sale.

Zhou: Yes, it was mentioned in the newspapers. The opposition of overseas Chinese would be nothing to worry about.

Takeiri: It is not the case that I do not understand how the overseas Chinese feel, but the government is ignoring this issue.

Zhou: It is best that they do not take up the issue.

What if Taiwan does not leave?

Takeiri: They appear to be making plans to leave the embassy and leave a trade company in place. Once the Prime Minister visits China to establish diplomatic relations, and once ambassadors are exchanged, diplomatic relations between Japan and Taiwan would be lost. Then there is no change to what Premier Zhou mentioned yesterday about entering into a peace and friendship treaty. There will be some small problems that remain, but for the large issues we cannot waste time.

Zhou: This is right. There is no need to touch on the Senkaku [Diaoyu] Islands issue. I gather that you did not have interest in the issue either. I also did not have interest in the matter, but historians have made it into an issue in relation to oil. Mr. Inoue Kiyoshi seems to be fired up about the issue as well. It is unnecessary to place too much emphasis on this issue.

Taken within the context of the reestablishment of diplomatic relations following the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence, then this is not an issue. The writings in the newspapers are only interruptions butting in.

Let’s finish our discussion of the Taiwan issue here and start our discussion on Japan-US relations.

I believe that because the US has not reestablished diplomatic relations with China, they want Japan to have relations with China.

Takeiri: I believe that is correct.

Zhou: The US faces certain circumstances and Japan also faces certain circumstances peculiar to itself.

The China-US Joint Declaration touches on this point. The US has contained China for the past twenty some years.

Japan has abandoned Taiwan. The occupier is the United States. They sent Chen Yi to confiscate the island. It is not Japan who is responsible for this, but it is the US. Regardless of this situation, the US has recognized one China. “Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait,” this was the creative wording of [Henry] Kissinger; it was something that I would not have thought of. Furthermore, the US has clearly indicated that it has no objections to the notion that Taiwan is a part of Chinese territory and that the Taiwan issue will be resolved by China.  

Next, it is written that China hopes for the peaceful liberation of Taiwan.

Like I said yesterday, I have also told [US President Richard] Nixon that I seek a peaceful solution.

US forces in Taiwan will leave once the Vietnam War is over. The scale of the Vietnam War is getting smaller. Once the Vietnam War is over they will withdraw completely, and they will leave Taiwan altogether.

This is a secret. I have only told you about this. This point was not made clear in the Joint Declaration. We established things so that they will withdraw as tension decreases in the Far East.

The China-US Joint Declaration is linked to Vietnam. We had to think about Vietnam instead of thinking about ourselves. There is bloodshed in Vietnam.

The Taiwan issue is divided, but there is no bloodshed. Taiwan is an internal Chinese issue. Solving the Taiwan issue ahead of Vietnam would be a shameful thing to do to our Vietnamese brothers. I discussed this with Nixon and Kissinger and said that I will be responsible for decreasing tensions.

However, because the US is warring in Vietnam, we will support Vietnam. Nixon recognized that our standpoint is just.

Nixon said that he would not say anything if the US was blamed. His only request was that we do not use too many adjectives when we call out the US by name.

The Soviets do not criticize the US. The Soviets are only thinking of themselves. The Middle East is right under their nose and so they have interest in the region, but they do not have much interest in Indochina.

We believe that sovereignty of the Indochina lies with the three Indochinese states [Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia].

I made it clear to Nixon that if the Paris Conference does not progress smoothly and if fighting continues, we will support Vietnam. The US demanded that neither party speaks on behalf of third-party countries.

I believe that this attitude is good. It is not right to speak on behalf of third-party countries.

Japan-China issues are separate issues from China-US issues. Japan is not a participant in the Indochina War. They are sympathetic and so are opposed to the war. If you gained from this situation, then that is monopolistic capitalism, such as shipbuilding, shipping, and transport of weapons.  

The Japanese Government is not directly and openly participating so they do not face restrictions.

With regard to Taiwan, as well, things are being returned to China. The realities of Japan-China relations and China-US relations are different.

While the US looked upon China as an enemy, the comings and goings of Japan-China relations were not severed during the past twenty years.

We have returned 30,000 Japanese, including war criminals. We have carried on friendly attitudes. Friendship, memoranda, and trade are paths that the former minister Matsumura [Kenzo] opened up. Japan knows this.

The US does not have this. They have even less of cultural exchanges. Ping-Pong diplomacy lapsed last year, but it has been reestablished. Ping-Pong is the reason that Nixon conducted secret diplomacy to reestablish relations. That ball is very important.

The Foreign Ministry wanted to only invite countries such as Canada. The US also wanted to join, but they believed that the circumstances were not right.

Chairman Mao [Zedong] said that circumstances not being ‘right’ was a weak reason. He phoned Wang Xiaoyu who was in Japan. And so the US table tennis team and newspaper reporters came to China.

The catalyst for US-Chinese relations was the table tennis team. They came in April, and Kissinger came in July. On the other hand, in terms of cultural and science exchange, Japan had been active in fields such as exchange of Go, shipping, fishing, and trade.

Japan is the largest trading partner of China. Last year it was at one billion dollars.

Japan is in the black. We are not protesting. We would like you to tell the Prime Minister—who was the former Minister of International Trade—and Nakasone [Yasuhiro], the Minister of International Trade and Industry. Trade will develop. The reestablishment of diplomatic relations is the only way that such relations with Japan can be developed.  It cannot be the same with the US The US has security ties with Taiwan. Japan has a peace treaty with Jiang Jieshi, but they do not have a security treaty.

Although the US recognizes that Taiwan is an internal political matter for China, there needs to be a process.

The establishment of relations between Japan and China is different. It is necessary to convince the US in this regard.

If the Prime Minister agrees after you report to him, and if he will seek agreement from the US, China will also talk with the US

We hope for this to happen after Japan-US discussions and not before. I have said that the reestablishment of Japan-China relations will not affect US-China relations. Kissinger said that he would be in favor of Japan-China friendship. Currently, Japan and China both want to reestablish diplomatic relations, and so the US should not oppose this. The Japan-US Security Treaty or the Sato-Nixon Joint Declaration [of 1969] did not come up during China-US talks.

Therefore, the US will be a roadblock to some extent, and so we must convince them otherwise.

Japan cannot speak like the Tokyo Shimbun either. The Soviet Union also combined the end to hostilities with reestablishing diplomatic relations. The Japan-Soviet precedent exists. The US was the first to pursue diplomacy over the heads of others. I believe we can convince the US, given that we are not creating a new precedent, but rather following the Soviet precedent of reestablishing diplomatic relations while also entering into a peace treaty.

Takeiri: The Foreign Minister did mention that he believes that the US will have some slight complaints. However, Foreign Minister Ohira said that his decision will be made before and not after meeting with Nixon. He also said that he will convince the US

Takeiri: Is it alright to convey to the two of them that the US will withdraw from Taiwan after the Vietnam War is over?

Zhou: I believe it is alright to tell the two of them. However, please tell them not to ask the US regarding this point. If the they hears this, they may believe that I trust you more than the US

I have not told Mr. Miki or Mr. Fujiyama. I have told you because the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister will need to know this in order to work on Japan-US relations.

Takeiri: I will formally convey Premier Zhou’s favorable words. I believe that their decision will not change even after meeting with Nixon. I believe they will deal with the information wisely. When a B-52 landed on Okinawa the other day, Chief Cabinet Secretary Nikaido lodged a firm protest with the US Ambassador [Robert Stephen Ingersoll]. This act is unprecedented for the Japanese Cabinet.

Zhou: We watched this carefully. This is a new factor for the Tanaka cabinet. This is unprecedented.

Takeiri: For the US, Japan and Okinawa are rear bases for the Vietnam War. We have repaired ships and tanks in Japanese bases. They probably believe that such a relationship that allows for the US to use our bases would become difficult as a result of Japan-China relations being reestablished. They also worry about its effect on South Korea and other Southeast Asian countries. However, Prime Minister Tanaka has already made up his mind.

Zhou: Yes, I believe that they are worried. The North and South [of Korea] are trying to reunify. This is a good thing. It is quick. If it is convenient, I think it would be good to convey this to the Prime Minister separately from the topic of Japan-China relations. I have heard that Prime Minister Tanaka is trying to conduct trade and cultural exchange. I believe Japan’s exchange with North Korea is a good thing. I believe it is a good thing to press for the reunification of North and South, and it is also a good thing to conduct exchanges. Please recommend this to him.

Takeiri: The US is worried about what would happen to South Korea after Japan-China relations are reestablished.

Zhou: The solution of this problem (Japan-US talks regarding the reestablishment of Japan-China relations) is beneficial not only for the people of Japan and China, but also for the people of the world.

During the China-US talks, the US was in favor of the Chinese standpoint on the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence. China and the US will solve problems peacefully in accordance to the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence.

Second, the Joint Declaration is written in five parts.

The normalization of China-US relations is beneficial not only for China and the US, but also for world peace. If this is the case, it is the same for China and Japan. I believe it would be good to convince the US using the China-US Joint Declaration.

The previous part was from the US draft. What if Japan tries to convince the US by saying that they are doing what the US has said before.

I have told you secrets. The commonality in the documents is the point made in the US draft. I changed the verb from present tense to future tense.

The future tense is unnecessary between Japan and China. We should only leave the common aspects and avoid the inclusion of contradictions. We should keep it shorter than long. Points of convergence should rise up. We should leave small differences behind and seek the bigger agreements. It is the same idea as the Bandung Conference.

Let us have our meal.

JAPANESE (TRANSCRIPTION) HTML

7月28日(19.00~20.45)

竹入.周会談 第二

周: 昨日のニュースを調べてみたら、自民党日中協の話しではなく、東京新聞の記事でした。東京新聞の記事は変っています。テーマも変っています

 田中首相が訪中する場合は戦争状態を終結することに重点を置いている

 田中首相が訪中する場合両国政府は次の様な共同宣言を出す。<1> 日中両国間の戦争状態を終結。<2> 平和、友好、善隣の関係を回復する。そしてそのあとに、(東京新聞の記事を読み上げる

{<1>などは原文ではマル1など、以下同じ}

 東京新聞の報導のように中国を承認しないのなら、田中首相は何にしに中国え来るのでしょう。竹入先生は東京で草案の作成をやってはいけないと云ったが東京でやれば長びくと思います

竹入: 日本の新聞は往々にして的を得ない記事を書くことがあります。私と田中首相、大平外相の話しからみて、この記事については二人の考えではないと思います

また、この考えは、どこにももらしてはいない。知っているのは二人の他、若しかすれば二階堂官房長官だけです。恐らく三木もこのことは知らぬ筈です。外務省も事件以来、統制は行き届いている筈ですし、外相も厳しく統制していると思いますので外務省からでもないと思います

周: 田中首相が中国え来て、戦争終結だけではコッケイです。岸やカヤが飛ばしたものではないでしょうか

 今のニュースは、ソ連と比較しているが歴史的な事実を曲げている。(読売新聞、27日付の記事を読み上げる

竹入: 読売新聞の方がましですね。私の申し上げた二人の考えは変ることはありません

周: そんなふうにはすこしも思っておりません。田中首相が先生方を信頼したという事は決心があったという事でしよう

竹入: 私もそう了解しています。

周: 若し東京新聞の段取りで行けば時間を無ダにする丈です。

 先生が昨日、好事魔多しと云われましたが時間の浪費になり、どんな邪魔が入るかも知れません。今の消息の出所は別としても一部の人々に蒋介石の事が気になっているのではないでしようか

竹入: 大平外相と意見交換をした。外相の判断としては首相が訪中し、国交樹立の段階で間違いなく、台湾は出て行くだろうと云っていました。台湾の在日公館が売りに出されている事は、新聞に早く出ることは、好しくないと心配していました

周: 新聞にチョット出ましたね。華僑の反対は値しないと思います

竹入: 華僑の気持は判らないでもありませんが政府は黙殺しています

周: 解答しない方が良いでしよう。

若し台湾が引きあげない場合はいかがでしようか

竹入: 在日公館を引きあげて貿易会社を残す動きをしています。首相が訪中し、外交関係の樹立、大使交換をした場合、日台関{前1文字ママ}の国交は無くなります。それで昨日周総理が云われた平和友好条約に入っていく考えに変りはありません。細い問題は残りますが大筋の問題は、時間をおいてはいけないと思います

周: そうです。尖閣列島の問題にもふれる必要はありません。竹入先生も関心が無かったでしょう。私も無かったが石油の問題で歴史学者が問題にし、日本でも井上清さんが熱心です。この問題は重く見る必要はありません

 平和五原則に則って、国交回復することに比べると問題になりません。新聞で書くことは横ヤリを入れたことになりますね

 台湾問題は以上で日米関係に入りましょう

アメリカとしては、自分はまだ国交回復していないのだから日本に待ってもらいたいという考えがあるのでしよう

竹入: あると思います。

周: アメリカにはアメリカの事情があり、日本には日本の事情があります。

 中米共同声明でそのことにふれています。米は20数年間、中国を封じ込めて来ました

 日本は台湾を放棄しています。占領しているのは米です。陳儀という人を派遣して接収しました。責任を負うのは米で日本ではありません。しかし、そうゆう状態であるにも拘らず米が一つの中国を認めました。台湾海峡の両側の中国人、これはキッシンヂャーの創造的云葉で私も思いつきませんでした。その次に、台湾は中国領土の一部であり、台湾問題の解決は中国自身のものであり、米は異議がない前提をハッキリしています

 次に中国が平和的に開放することを希望すると書いてあります

 昨日云ったように、ニクソンにも平和的解決を求めると云ってあります。

 台湾の米軍はベトナム戦争が終れば逐次引きあげる。現在、ベトナム戦争の規模が小さくなっている。ベトナム戦争が終れば完全に撤退し、台湾から完全にひき上げる

 これは秘密です。先生方のみに云いました。共同声明ではハッキリしていません

極東情勢が緩和するに従って引きあげるというふうにしてあります

 中米共同声明はベトナムと結びついている。私たちは自分の事を考えるのではなくベトナムのことを考えねばなりませんでした。ベトナムでは血が流されています

湾の問題は分裂しているが血は流されておりません。台湾は中国の内部の問題です。ベトナムより先に台湾を解決するのはベトナムの兄弟に済まないことです。このことはニクソンとキッシンヂャーと懇談をし、状勢緩和の責任を負うといゝました

 しかし、米軍がベトナムで戦争をやっているのだから、ベトナムを支持します。ニクソンは我々の意見が公正であることを認めました

 米を批難してもニクソンは何も云わないと云いました。唯、米の希望は名指しで余り形容詞を使わないでくれということでした。

 ソ連は米を批判しません。ソ連は自分の事だけ考えています。中東は鼻先きですから関心がありますがインドシナについては余り関心を示しません

 私たちはインドシナの主権はインドシナ三国のものであるとしています

 パリー会談がうまく行かなくて戦争が続くなら、ベトナムを支持するとニクソンにはハッキリ云ってあります。どちらも第三国を代表して話しをしないという事はアメリカの要求です

 私は米の態度は良いと思います。第三国に代ってものを云うのは良くありません

 日中問題は中米問題と別問題です。日本はインドシナ戦争に加担しておりません。同情し、反対しています。その斗いの中に得をしたとするならばそれは独占資本です。例えば船舶、造船、武器輸送の部門でしよう

日本の政府は、直接公けに参加しなかったし日本は拘束されません

 台湾についても元々中国に返してあるものです。日中と中米は事情が違います

米は敵視し日中間は20数年間往来がとだえませんでした

日本人は3万人全部返し戦犯も返しました。友好的態度で貫いてきました。友好、覚書き貿易は、かって大臣だった松村先生がきりひらいた道です。このことは日本が良く知っています

 米にはそれがありません。文化交流はもっとあります。昨年のピンポン外交は一時ど{前1文字ママ}だえていましたが回復しました。頭ごし外交をニクソンがやったのは、この回復をもたらしたのは、ピンポンです。この球は重要です。

 外交部ではカナダ等しか呼ばないと定めてありました。米も希望していましたが状勢が未熟であると述べておりました

 毛主席が未熟とはとるに足らぬ理由であるとし、日本に居る王暁云さんに電話で伝えました。そして米の卓球チームと新聞記者の方が、中国に参りました

 米中のきっかけになったのは卓球団でした。4月に訪中し、キッシンヂャーは7月でした。日本は文化の面でも碁の往来、航海、漁業、貿易、科学技術の交流についてもやっていました

 中国の対外貿易は、いつも日本が一番多く昨年は10億ドルで日本が最高でした

 日本が黒字です。中国は抗議して居りません。これは元通産大臣の首相と中曽根通産相に伝えてもらいたい。貿易は発展するでしよう。日本とこうゆう関係を発展させる為には、国交回復しかありません。アメリカと同じではダメです。米は台湾と軍事条約を結んでいます。日本と蒋介石は平和条約を結んだが軍事条約はありません

 米は台湾は中国のもので内政問題と認めているが過程が必要です

 日中の国交樹立は米とちがいます。この点 米を説得する必要があります

 首相に報告し、首相が了解し、米に了解を求めるなら中国は米に云います

 これは日米会談の前ではなく、あとにしたいと思います。日中関係の回復は米中関係に影響しないとこの点は云っておいた。日中両国の友好はキッシンヂャーは賛成するといゝました。現在、日中両国が国交回復を早めたい気持ですから米は反対すべきではない。中米でも安保、佐藤-ニクソン共同声明は出て来ませんでした

だから米はいくらか足を引っぱるでしようが説得をしなければなりません

 日本としても東京新聞のような云い方は出来ません。ソ連でも戦争終結と国交樹立を一緒にしました。日ソの前例があります。頭ごしは米がはじめてやりました。ソ連がやった国交樹立とそれから平和条約、日中両国は先にやるのではなく彼等のあとを追っているのですから米に納得させる事が出来るでしよう

竹入: 米が若干もんくを云うだろうとは外相が云っていました。しかし大平外相の決意はニクソンに会ってから決めるのではなくて、会う前に決めていく、そして、米を説得すると云っていました。

竹入: ベトナム戦争終結後、台湾の米軍が引きあげるということを二人に伝えてもよろしいですか

周: 二人には云って良いと思います。しかし、二人が米にきゝ質さないように云って下さい。これをきくと、米以上に竹入さんを信頼しているという事になりますから

竹入さん以外に三木、藤山さんにも云っていません。伝えるのはお二人が日米関係を処理する為、いくらか知っておかねばならないからです

竹入: 周総理の御好意あるこの話しを正確に伝えます。二人はニクソンに会っても決心は変えないと思います。賢明に処理すると思います。先日、沖縄にB52が飛来した時、二階堂官房長官が米大使に厳重に抗議しました。歴代内閣に無かったことです

周: この点は私たちは注意して見ていました。田中内閣の新しい要素です。今迄無かった事です

竹入: 米として、日本と沖縄はベトナム戦争の後方基地である。日本の基地では船や戦車など修理をしました。こうゆう関係で日中国交回復の結果、米が日本の基地を使い難くなると考えてもいるでしよう。もう一点は南朝鮮他、東南アジア諸国えの影響を心配しているのではないでしょうか。しかし、田中首相はもう決心をしています。

周: そうですね。心配しているのでしょう。南北朝鮮が統一しようとしている。いゝ事ですね。早いですね。若し都合がついたら、日中関係とは別として、首相に申し上げると良いと思います。田中首相は貿易、文化の交流をしようとしていることをきゝましたが北鮮との交流は日本のために良い事です。南北統一を促し、交流することはいゝ事だと思います。それを勧めてあげて下さい

竹入: 米が南鮮に対し、日中国交回復後、どうなるかを心配しているようです

周: この問題(日中国交回復の為の日米会談)の解決は、日中両国人民のみに有利でなく、世界の人民に有利です。

 中米会談では、平和共存の五原則に則り米が中国の意見に賛成しました。中米両国は以上の平和五原則に則っとり、問題を平和的に解決する

 第二に共同声明として五点にわたって書いてあります

 中米両国関係の正常化は中米両国のみでなく世界の平和にとって有利である。そうなら、中日関係も同じである。中米共同声明で米を説得すれば良いと思います

 今の部分は米の起草です。米の云ったとをりやっているといって、説得したらどうでしようか

 秘密を先生に云いました。文献の共通点は米の起草したものです。私は動詞を現在形から未来形にしました

 日中間では未来形はいらないばかりでなく共通点のみにして、喰いちがう点は書かない方が良い。長くせず短くしたらどうでしよう。一致点が現れてきます。小異を残して大同を求める行き方です。バンドン会議の精神です

それでは食事でも致しましよう。

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