March 5, 1965
Record of Conversation between Qiao Guanhua and the DPRK Ambassador to China Pak Se-chang
This document was made possible with support from MacArthur Foundation
Time: 5 March 1965, 4:00 p.m.
Location: East Building Conference Room
Observer: Department Head Zhang Wenjin
Translation: Li Xiangwen
Documentation: Jiang Chunyi
Ambassador Pak Se-chang [Pak Se Chang]: The day before yesterday, the Indonesian Ambassador to [North] Korea forwarded an invitation from President Sukarno. They notified us of Premier Kim [Il Sung’s] itinerary during his visit to Indonesia: he will arrive in Jakarta on 16 April ; Sukarno will host a banquet on 17 April; the ceremony for commemorating the tenth anniversary of the Bandung Conference will be held on 18 April; a mass conference will take place on 19 April; commemorative activities and an international leadership summit will be held for the tenth anniversary of the Bandung Conference on 20-21 April; a visit to Bali Island will occur on 22-23 April; and [Kim] will depart from Indonesia on 24 April. It will be Comrade Premier [Kim Il Sung] who goes [to Indonesia] on this visit. I have received instructions from [North] Korea to learn about the following from the [Chinese] Ministry of Foreign Affairs in regards of what issues will be discussed at the international leadership summit, who will represent China, and when they will travel.
Vice Minister Qiao [Guanhua]: On 3 March , the Indonesian Ambassador to China [Djawoto] informed us of the commemorative activities along the same lines as to what the Ambassador has just said. But there was a small difference, [as] the notification said that we are traveling to Bogor on 20 April and Bali Island on 21April. There was no mentioning of an international leadership summit. [As] this event is a commemorative event, generally there should not be an international leadership summit. My personal guess is that, perhaps, some national leaders will use the trip to Bogor as an opportunity to exchange views on the Second Asia-Africa Conference. We can ask the Indonesians about this. I feel as if the [North] Korean comrades can also directly ask the Indonesians about this issue. It is not clear whether or not the leaders will speak at the mass conference, [so] we need further clarification on this. After this becomes clearer to us, we will quickly inform the [North] Korean comrades. Premier Zhou [Enlai] is prepared to go to this event, although the specifics are still not yet set. The Premier will take a private flight and will probably depart from Beijing no later than 14 April. This is a big event [now] that Premier [Kim] is going. If the [North] Korean side needs any assistance in regards to transportation or security, please mention it to us and we will provide as much assistance as we can. If anything comes up, Comrade Ambassador, contact us at any time.
Ambassador Pak Se-chang: Thank you. Once [I have] instructions from [North] Korea, I will come again and find Comrade Vice Minister.
Vice Minister Qiao: Good.
Ambassador Pak Se-chang: My trip back home this time was much longer [than usual]. I want to use this opportunity to discuss with Comrade Vice Minister some of [Alexei] Kosygin’s visit to [North] Korea. After Kosygin left Moscow for Hanoi, they told our Ambassador in the Soviet Union that he wanted to visit [North] Korea. After he reached Vietnam, the Soviets, for the second time, notified our Embassy in Vietnam that he wanted to visit [North] Korea. So we invited him. The Korean Workers’ Party has already reported the contents of this particular bilateral discussion to the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party. The position and direction of the Korean Workers’ Party are the same as they were when Comrade Premier [Kim Il Sung] talked with Premier [Zhou Enlai] several times in the past, and they are the same as when Comrade Premier [Kim Il Sung] came to Beijing from Vietnam last time. There has not been any change. [When Premier Kim] talked with Kosygin this time, Comrade Premier generally speaking severely criticized the [Communist] Party of the Soviet Union. Comrade Premier [Kim Il Sung] discussed the 20th Congress and 22nd Congress [of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union]. Comrade Kim Il had talked with them [the Soviets] about the 20th Congress once before. This time, Comrade Premier [Kim Il Sung] ruthlessly beat them up about the 22nd Congress and issues after that. The Premier told Kosygin that, first, what you did to Stalin was too cruel and, second, that you have conducted public attacks against Albania. We felt at the time that Khrushchev was not to be trusted. From that time on, the relationship between our two parties has worsened. At the time, our way [of dealing with] the CPSU was, initially, to prepare to talk, but because our country was in a direct confrontation with the American imperialists, we endured it. At the same time, we believe this is a family quarrel, so we did not talk about it. Third, you are plotting to isolate the Chinese Communist Party. During the East Germany Party Representative Conference, [you] allowed the Yugoslav representatives to speak but fraternal parties, including the representatives of the Korean Workers’ Party, were not allowed to speak. Following this, we issued several articles [and] what we did was correct. Particularly as we often hear that Khrushchev wants to sell East Germany to West Germany and that he talks at length about the reduction of armed forces, tanks, artillery—the melt down of standing arms. So, in the past, we could not trust you, and we still cannot trust you [the Soviet Union]. This is especially [the case] because Khrushchev submitted to Eisenhower, calling him an angel of peace. This brought chaos to the anti-American struggle and the struggles for national liberation. Khrushchev also imposed revisionism upon the fraternal parties, and so some fraternal parties likewise do not trust you. The Premier also told Kosygin that there are many differences between our two parties. We still need to watch you. As long as you abandon Khrushchev’s revisionism and carry out the anti-imperialist struggle, then in the future we can have contact and [our] differences can be overcome. However, we still cannot talk about overcoming differences. Apart from the issues mentioned above, Comrade Premier also talked with Kosygin about the 1 March Conference, whether Yugoslavia is a socialist country, and other issues. When Comrade Premier offered criticisms, Kosygin could not respond, his face turned red and then green. Kosygin did not talk about much during this visit. We did most of the talking. They brought prepared speeches that they used in Vietnam and gave them to us.
Vice Minister Qiao: Thank you Comrade Ambassador for telling us the contents of the talks. Regarding these issues, our two parties are in agreement.
A conversation between Qiao Guanhua and the DPRK Ambassador to China Pak Se-chang on Premier Kim Il Sung’s visit to Indonesia and Alexei Kosygin’s visit to Korea.
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